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Mike Norris Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 4274
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Posted: 05 October 2012 at 12:51pm | IP Logged | 1
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I think there is often a certain amount of character drift once the creators leave. Sometimes you have a revamp like Green Arrow or the Beast where everything is stripped away except for the power set. Other times the people involved lose sight of who the character is and you wind up with Batman in space fighting aliens. Or they take one aspect and amp it up to absurd levels and you wind up with Psycho-Ninja Batman.
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Jason Czeskleba Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 April 2004 Posts: 4620
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Posted: 05 October 2012 at 1:08pm | IP Logged | 2
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Andrew Bitner wrote:
would a more true-to-ditko version have lasted as long or longer? |
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The O'Neil concept might well have been more commercial. I'm not sure. My point though, is that it was so completely divergent from the original character that I don't understand the point of using the original character's name and appearance at all, unless it was simply to repudiate the original series (and Ditko). I would think an original character with the same concepts and approach would have been just as successful for O'Neil. Generally a character is revived either due to fondness for the original series on the part of the writer, or a desire to attract fans of the original series. And neither of these things appears to be the case with O'Neil's version of the Question.
Edited by Jason Czeskleba on 05 October 2012 at 1:10pm
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David Plunkert Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 03 July 2012 Posts: 536
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Posted: 05 October 2012 at 2:24pm | IP Logged | 3
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I would think an original character with the same concepts and approach would have been just as successful for O'Neil.
iii
Fair points Jason. Though in the case of the Question....having a purchased character with a cool name and visual means that a fair amount of the creative heavy lifting has been done.
Glimmers of Ditko's Question popped up in Dark Knight 2 and in the Justice League Unlimited series but he's used sparingly.
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Dave Phelps Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 4184
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Posted: 05 October 2012 at 2:38pm | IP Logged | 4
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Jason, if by "using the same name," you mean calling the guy Vic Sage and claiming he was the Ditko character having just gone through a traumatic experience, then I can't really argue with you. But I disagree that the "hero name" and visual were easily replacable. The entire series was built around them.
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Brian Hague Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 November 2006 Posts: 8515
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Posted: 05 October 2012 at 4:56pm | IP Logged | 5
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O'Neil's changes were concious and completely intentional. He began the series by having Ditko's Question shot in the head and "killed." That he is then brought back to life as a more conflicted, less certain, more "questioning" character was O'Neil's way of throwing Ditko's more black and white version aside and changing him into someone O'Neil could admire and identify with more. O'Neil shot Ditko's Question in the head and killed him to make him more palatable for O'Neil to write. That's pretty hard for me to overlook.
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David Plunkert Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 03 July 2012 Posts: 536
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Posted: 05 October 2012 at 9:41pm | IP Logged | 6
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Brian Hague wrote: O'Neil shot Ditko's Question in the head and killed him to make him more palatable for O'Neil to write. That's pretty hard for me to overlook. iii Its possible that giving one of Ditko's characters brain damage so they would represent a less strident philosophy might make Ditko chuckle... or not. In Blake Bell's Ditko monograph there's some interesting back and forth about how Denny and Ditko's political views differed but based on this quote, O'Neil admired Ditko professionally. "Professionally, there are few artists I would rather work with than Steve. HeÕs a consummate visual storyteller. He is virtually without ego in that he wants to tell the story, not show off. HeÕs one of the four or five best visual storytellers the medium has ever had. There have been times when he would not draw certain pictures because he didnÕt feel we were honoring the idea of the hero. He was very straightforward about it, though. He told you what he would and would not do. If you couldnÕt come to some kind of agreement, no hard feelings. ThatÕs about as professional as IÕd ever want anyone to be."
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Brian Hague Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 November 2006 Posts: 8515
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Posted: 05 October 2012 at 11:22pm | IP Logged | 7
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I've not read all of O'Neil's Question, but from what I recall, the character did not suffer brain damage as a result of his injuries, or that at least was not what was implied to be behind his change in perspective. He died and was reborn, spiritually, philosophically, and politically. I get that O'Neil liked Ditko's art, storytelling, and professionalism in declining to draw a splash page dream sequence with Tony Stark drunkenly weilding a broken bottle to paranoically take on the patrons of the bar in which he's been drinking. Marie Severin drew that splash instead. None of that, however, means that he was willing to write a Ditko character with politics and ideals as Ditko conceived or wrote them.
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Dana Smith Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 187
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Posted: 08 October 2012 at 1:20am | IP Logged | 8
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So wait...
INVISO TEXT (Click or highlight to reveal):
The Stranger's golden necklace/amulet is made from the silver he got from the betrayal of Jesus? |
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...Riiight.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133279
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Posted: 08 October 2012 at 4:05am | IP Logged | 9
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It feels very much like a kind of violation of the "separation of church and state". Doesn't this "reveal" effectively make Christianity DC Comics' official religion?Gods are something of a staple of superhero comics, but Marvel and DC have tended to avoid explicitly endorsing any one mainstream faith. (When Tony Isabella was writing GHOST RIDER he gave Johnny Blaze a recurring "friend" who he intended to be Jesus. That got right down to the wire, but Marvel editorial called for rewrites to get rid of the "reveal".) Characters like Satan have usually turned out to be somebody else -- Mephisto in Marvel's case. But this. . .
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Steven McCauley Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 23 June 2004 Location: United States Posts: 1431
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Posted: 08 October 2012 at 4:09am | IP Logged | 10
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JB -- didn't DC already establish at least Judeo-Christian beliefs with the Spectre?
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133279
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Posted: 08 October 2012 at 4:11am | IP Logged | 11
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JB -- didn't DC already establish at least Judeo-Christian beliefs with the Spectre?•• I know the Spectre was the embodiment of the "Wrath of God", but was the "God" in question this specific? I admit I did not read that particular run of the character.
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Kip Lewis Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 March 2011 Posts: 2880
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Posted: 08 October 2012 at 5:59am | IP Logged | 12
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DC has pulled in Christian elements more than once. The JLA had a real Angel as a member and got involved with a war in heaven with rebel angels.
And at the same time they tried to have heroes who were athiest (denying all supernatural elements, especially life after death and dieties) who worked with Angels and other supernatural beings.
(I often wonder how valid are characters who are supposed to be athiests when they regularly interact with Thor, Hercules, Specter, Angels, Deadman.)
Hmm, didn't the FF go to heaven to find Ben Grimm or something like that?
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