| Author |
|
John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133257
|
| Posted: 04 October 2012 at 5:01am | IP Logged | 1
|
|
|
There's an element to this "reveal" that should not be overlooked: one again, a heroic character has been turned into someone who is trying to redeem himself. In this case, we have someone pretty close the the Ultimate Bad Guy trying to make up for what he did -- even tho, within The Plan, he had no CHOICE but to do what he did!!Hollywood has been going crazy with superheroes as redemption stories. Of course, that WAS the story behind Spider-Man, but it also got shoved into the Shadow, Iron Man, Green Lantern, sadly there is even a whisper of it in the first Donner SUPERMAN. How long before we find out it was teenaged Bruce Wayne who hired Joe Chill to off his parents so he, Bruce, could get his inheritance? That Steve Rogers was a bundist before being tapped to become Captain America? That Charles Xavier is in that wheelchair because he squandered the family fortune on drugs and prostitutes, and ended up borrowing money from the wrong people? It's really, really, really easy to break things. The real skill lies in building.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
Shawn Kane
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 November 2010
Location: United States
Posts: 3239
|
| Posted: 04 October 2012 at 6:20am | IP Logged | 2
|
|
|
That Charles Xavier is in that wheelchair because he squandered the family fortune on drugs and prostitutes, and ended up borrowing money from the wrong people? I'm hoping that somewhere Alan Moore or Warren Ellis isn't reading this because you may have just given them their perfect X-Men pitch!
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
Steven Legge
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 28 July 2012
Location: Canada
Posts: 866
|
| Posted: 04 October 2012 at 7:02am | IP Logged | 3
|
|
|
I was just going to say that!
But clearly, he'll have to have been a rapist, which would be the ironic punishment for being in the wheelchair.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
| www
e-mail
|
| |
Neil Brauer
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 10 February 2012
Location: United States
Posts: 714
|
| Posted: 04 October 2012 at 7:45am | IP Logged | 4
|
|
|
We were talking about the Phantom Stranger yesterday at the LCS. We were discussing how his lack of an official origin and non-defined powers made him much more interesting, but the new origin was never brought up. Coincidense I guess. The mantra for Marvel and DC--"I want it all, and I want it now."
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133257
|
| Posted: 04 October 2012 at 9:19am | IP Logged | 5
|
|
|
The mantra for Marvel and DC--"I want it all, and I want it now."•• When I first started writing my own stories, full time, one of the things I noticed was the small slice of fandom who absolutely did not understand, or would not tolerate, the idea of mysteries. Even in a story that was a mystery, like a whodunnit, the first issue would invariably generate mail from people complaining that it was "written badly" because everything was not revealed by, like, page three! Seems like the shrinking market has, along with other "fringe" groups, moved these folk closer and closer to the center.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
David Plunkert
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 03 July 2012
Posts: 536
|
| Posted: 04 October 2012 at 9:33am | IP Logged | 6
|
|
|
John Byrne said: Hollywood has been going crazy with superheroes as redemption stories. Of course, that WAS the story behind Spider-Man, but it also got shoved into the Shadow, Iron Man, Green Lantern, sadly there is even a whisper of it in the first Donner SUPERMAN.
iii
Its the Darth Vader syndrome.
For what its worth.... I think it worked pretty well in the context of Ironman whose raison d'etre in the comics was sometimes difficult to understand or shifted in an out of favor depending on the politics of the day.
Plus....I thought the scene where Yinsen tells him not to waste his life was almost as galvanizing a line as "with great power comes....etc."
But the Shadow thing was ridiculous. Once you've willingly killed someone who's helpless how is redemption possible?
Edited by David Plunkert on 04 October 2012 at 9:34am
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133257
|
| Posted: 04 October 2012 at 9:36am | IP Logged | 7
|
|
|
I think [redemption] worked pretty well in the context of [Iron Man]whose raison d'etre in the comics was sometimes difficult to understand…•• Good man doing the right thing for the right reasons not an option?
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
Matt Reed
Byrne Robotics Security
Robotmod
Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 35923
|
| Posted: 04 October 2012 at 9:47am | IP Logged | 8
|
|
|
John Byrne wrote:
| When I first started writing my own stories, full time, one of the things I noticed was the small slice of fandom who absolutely did not understand, or would not tolerate, the idea of mysteries. Even in a story that was a mystery, like a whodunnit, the first issue would invariably generate mail from people complaining that it was "written badly" because everything was not revealed by, like, page three! |
|
|
This is fairly pervasive in television and movies as well. There's an audience that doesn't want to be challenged. They don't want to wait for the story to reveal itself. They complain when the story isn't laid out for them in the first five minutes. Pacing is thrown out the window for the quick answer, the instant gratification, without thought to the very real feeling of being rewarded by a story well told. It's not just kids or this generation either. I get this from 40 year olds. They want to know everything now and get frustrated when they can't put it all together right away. That's frustrating to me! I want a story to take it's time, doling out information at just the right time to elicit a specific response in the viewer. I don't need nor do I expect answers right out of the gate. Where is the fun in that?
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
Neil Brauer
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 10 February 2012
Location: United States
Posts: 714
|
| Posted: 04 October 2012 at 10:15am | IP Logged | 9
|
|
|
It's not just kids or this generation either. I get this from 40 year olds. .................. Or older. I have a friend that's in his 50's that made the comment that ALIEN is boring. I was raised around a lot of people like this. When I was in jr. high I remember explaining movies to adults that couldn't follow a semi-complex storyline. "Is he a good guy or a bad guy?" they would ask. I came to the conclusion that if the story wasn't recapped before every commercial during a TV show or every 20 min. or so during a movie, they were lost. They simply wouldn't put in any effort to follow the storyline. I tried to watch a David Lynch movie with my step-mother and had to turn it off. It was too exasperating for both of us, for different reasons.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
Robbie Parry
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 June 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 12186
|
| Posted: 04 October 2012 at 10:23am | IP Logged | 10
|
|
|
QUOTE:
| This is fairly pervasive in television and movies as well. There's an audience that doesn't want to be challenged. They don't want to wait for the story to reveal itself. They complain when the story isn't laid out for them in the first five minutes. Pacing is thrown out the window for the quick answer, the instant gratification, without thought to the very real feeling of being rewarded by a story well told. It's not just kids or this generation either. I get this from 40 year olds. They want to know everything now and get frustrated when they can't put it all together right away. That's frustrating to me! I want a story to take it's time, doling out information at just the right time to elicit a specific response in the viewer. I don't need nor do I expect answers right out of the gate. Where is the fun in that? |
|
|
I have had similar battles with people, Matt. My brother-in-law won't give anything even five minutes. If it challenges him or requires pacing, he isn't interested.
Films like THE SILENCE OF THE LAMBS and TV shows like THE X-FILES may not be everyone, but I like the pacing. I even like some elements of STAR TREK: THE MOTION PICTURE, even if that film isn't for everyone. I like build-up, pacing, mystery, etc.
This instant gratification thing is worrying. I see a parallel with wrestling as well. Years ago, a lot of bouts had pacing, with wrestlers building up to particular moves and drawing an audience into a match, but at times, and it happens today, some wrestling matches use the "instant gratification formula" with several dozen moves in the first minute and no pacing, build-up, etc.
Some young person I knew tried to watch THE DAY THE EARTH STOOD STILL once, but they didn't want to give it a chance due to both the fact it was black-and-white, but also because of the pacing. I find that depressing, but if they want to miss out on good stories, more power to them.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
Mike Norris
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4274
|
| Posted: 04 October 2012 at 10:45am | IP Logged | 11
|
|
|
QUOTE:
| Or older. I have a friend that's in his 50's that made the comment that ALIEN is boring. |
|
|
Wouldn't he have been in his 20's when Alien came out?
There will always be people who don't like complex storytelling. They expect clear cut non-ambiguous characters and plots in films/books/tv that keep the story simple and the questions/answers put forth simpler.
There is also a subset of fans who are so into continuity that they hate not knowing anything. They have to know every detail of the characters lives. Reboots, remakes and retcons flummox these people. Suddenly they know nothing and they get all frustrated and impatient. They can't let the story unfold at a natural pace and need to know if story X still happened or how character Y is impacted by change Z.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
e-mail
|
| |
David Plunkert
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 03 July 2012
Posts: 536
|
| Posted: 04 October 2012 at 10:50am | IP Logged | 12
|
|
|
Good man doing the right thing for the right reasons not an option?
iii
Yes..... Though I think there's a place for motivation(s) as well.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
Topic Closed)
