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Chad Carter Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 16 June 2005 Posts: 9584
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Posted: 01 October 2012 at 8:26pm | IP Logged | 1
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One thing I loved about Bill Mantlo: he wasn't afraid to cross over the Hulk with characters he enjoyed. I get the feeling Mantlo loved nothing more than to give short-shrift characters some new life.
This in particular was a big moment for fans of Bill and Sal Buscema's paralleling comic runs, in ROM SPACEKNIGHT and INCREDIBLE HULK. Many people had been asking for this crossover for years. I'm sure it barely registered with many, but cool nonetheless:
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Rob Ocelot Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 07 December 2008 Location: Canada Posts: 1231
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Posted: 02 October 2012 at 6:59am | IP Logged | 2
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I think Marvel needs a character like the Hulk was in his next-to-early days before his serial strip in TTA -- Making short guest appearances in other books (eg ASM #14) but not having a book to himself*. Basically a drifter, with their guest appearance occasionally (but not necessarily) being the lynchpin that resolves the story.
These days it's one or two characters like Spider-man or Wolverine who are not only plastered over 3-4 of their regular books but also up everyone else's noses too.
*What I find odd is that both the Hulk Essential and Omnibus skip these stories! Sure, they are reprinted elsewhere but it would be nice to have them in one place. It's also a very jarring jump from HULK #6 to the TTA era -- and that's saying something given that those first six HULK issues were all over the place!
Edited by Rob Ocelot on 02 October 2012 at 7:03am
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Robert Bradley Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 20 September 2006 Location: United States Posts: 4834
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Posted: 02 October 2012 at 7:28am | IP Logged | 3
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Namor was another character who had several memorable appearances in other Marvel titles (not including his Fantastic Four appearances in issues #4, 6, 9, 14, 27, 33 and Annual #1) before getting his own series in Tales to Astonish -
Daredevil #7, Avengers #3-4, X-Men #6, Strange Tales #107 & 102
As for the Hulk, he had notable appearances in Fantastic Four #12, 25 & 26, Avengers #1-3, Amazing Spider-Man #14, Journey into Mystery #112 and Tales to Astonish #59.
The Avengers was also a showcase for prominent characters without their own book - Captain America, Goliath & the Wasp, Hercules, the Black Panther, Hawkeye, Quicksilver & the Scarlet Witch, etc., mainly during the stint when Thor and Iron Man were gone between issues #16 & 50.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 132644
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Posted: 02 October 2012 at 7:37am | IP Logged | 4
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So that woman is DEAD in that last panel of the HULK page?
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Greg Woronchak Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 04 September 2007 Location: Canada Posts: 1631
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Posted: 02 October 2012 at 7:40am | IP Logged | 5
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Mulling over my favorites, I remember fondly how shocked I was at the last page of FF 249.... I simply couldn't wait the 30 days for the next issue! (I haven't had that feeling much since then)
Another is Incredible Hulk 272, one of the first comics I ever purchased. The surprise appearance of Sasquatch actually makes sense and moves the drama forward.
I think effective use of guest stars (or continuing plots from other titles) is great marketing, giving a gentle nudge for a reader to check out another title. The 'modern' philosophy, however, of sprinkling 'hot' characters randomly in books and having stories drag thru many titles (loudly proclaimed on covers and thru previews) to bump sales just doesn't result in the same 'magic' for me.
Edited by Greg Woronchak on 02 October 2012 at 7:41am
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 132644
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Posted: 02 October 2012 at 7:48am | IP Logged | 6
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I think effective use of guest stars (or continuing plots from other titles) is great marketing, giving a gentle nudge for a reader to check out another title. The 'modern' philosophy, however, of sprinkling 'hot' characters randomly in books (loudly proclaimed on covers and thru previews) to bump sales just doesn't result in the same 'magic' for me.•• Thing is, those guest appearances we remember so fondly were there mostly to boost sales, too. Heck, EVERYTHING was there to boost sales. The difference was a lack of cynicism on both sides of the equation, sellers and buyers. The object of the exercise was always and ever to SELL THE PRODUCT, but we who were the targets of those sales pitches did not think of ourselves as such (nor did we ever think of what we were buying as "investments"), and, except in rare instances, the creators were not thinking "what can I do that will be HOT?" (One of those rare instances in early Marvel was THE INCREDIBLE HULK, which was created to cash in on the success of the Thing, and which floundered around for six issues and then died.) Stan and Jack, who should be role models to the current crowd, understood that to keep the audience coming back, and to "grow" the audience (to use a term that would never have occurred to either of them), they had to keep "pushing the envelope" with bigger and more spectacular stories. If the stories were worth reading, the readers would be there. "If you build it, they will come." Not, "if you create a big enough con job you can sucker in the few who are left..."
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Robert Bradley Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 20 September 2006 Location: United States Posts: 4834
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Posted: 02 October 2012 at 8:48am | IP Logged | 7
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Some comics I remember from my early reading days that fell into this theme (In addition to the "Golden Archer" appearance that Chad posted earlier) -
As JB mentioned, guest appearances have been used to boost sales since the early days. The trick is to not go to the well to often. If a book isn't strong enough to stand on its own, sticking a Spider-Man or Wolverine appearance in it isn't going to fix anything. Guest appearances are most effective when they're used to attract new readers to try a quality book out for the first time, and hopefully get them hooked.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 132644
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Posted: 02 October 2012 at 9:07am | IP Logged | 8
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If a book isn't strong enough to stand on its own, sticking a Spider-Man or Wolverine appearance in it isn't going to fix anything.•• Time upon a once, such guest appearances (like Captain America in IRON FIST, above) were done in the hope of drawing attention to titles that SHOULD have been strong enough to stand on their own, but which, for some reason, were not getting the attention they deserved.
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David Plunkert Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 03 July 2012 Posts: 536
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Posted: 02 October 2012 at 9:42am | IP Logged | 9
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I wonder if some characters can't get traction because they're perceived as "second to" some other character in the minds of the reader? Ala Hercules is Marvel's second mythological hero and Ironfist is Marvel's second Kung fu character who speaks to himself in captions.
Thor can do anything Herc can do and probably offers more story possibilities but Ironfist seems more unique and a somewhat more rounded character to me than Shang Chi....and the glowing fist shtick that lets a street level dude knock out big guns never gets old.
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Mark Haslett Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 19 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 6277
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Posted: 02 October 2012 at 9:59am | IP Logged | 10
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The UNHERALDED cross over/guest appearance has the distinction of feeling completely there for fun. Like having the X-Men show up in a Marvel Team-Up book with Spider-Man and the Hulk (and Woodgod) on the cover-- it's a completely unexploited "event" to please the readers.
One difference is that unheralded guests appear to serve the story, rather than drive the story. I love both, but there is a difference.
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Martin Arlt Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 879
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Posted: 02 October 2012 at 10:26am | IP Logged | 11
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I've mentioned elsewhere that the Micronauts was my gateway drug for comic collecting. It was the first title that got me to seek out back issues I had missed along the way. But there were several guest appearances that got me to try other comics. I saw an issue of Man-Thing after having read about him in issue 7, so I started buying that title. Later on, the FF appearance led me to give that book a try (luckily, there was a writer/artist working on it at the time that really grabbed my attention!). A later appearance by the X-Men got me to try that book. And once I started getting FF and X-Men, I was hooked into the superhero world, and other titles soon followed.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 132644
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Posted: 02 October 2012 at 11:13am | IP Logged | 12
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I wonder if some characters can't get traction because they're perceived as "second to" some other character in the minds of the reader? Ala Hercules is Marvel's second mythological hero and Ironfist is Marvel's second Kung fu character who speaks to himself in captions. Thor can do anything Herc can do and probably offers more story possibilities but Ironfist seems more unique and a somewhat more rounded character to me than Shang Chi....and the glowing fist shtick that lets a street level dude knock out big guns never gets old. •• Iron Fist suffered from a triple whammy: he was the "other" kung fu character; and he was an attempt to "cross pollinate" that genre with superheroes, so we ended up with superhero fans who didn't want to read a kung fu book, and kung fu fans who didn't want to read a superhero book.
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