Author |
|
John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133279
|
Posted: 17 September 2012 at 7:29am | IP Logged | 1
|
|
|
in this age of instant gratification, that's a BAD thing. It's not about aspiring, any more. It's about getting it all NOW. Which is what a character like Wolverine offers. He's all about bad attitude and kicking ass......................... I agree. But in Wolverine's defense--he wasn't always that way. There is a panel fairly early in JB's run, with Wolverine looking down through a window at Jean and Scott getting out of a car. He obviously had a thing for Jean but the feelings were one sided. It was a HORRIBLE mistake to have Jean and Logan "hook up". •• But that is EXACTLY the kind of "instant gratification" I'm talking about. When it was Scott and Jean who were doing the will they/won't they dance, some fans clamored for them to get together. Most writers were savvy enough to realize that would be a mistake, but it happened eventually anyway. Then Wolverine was introduced into the equation, and the clamoring took on a different note. A big problem lies in the fact that too many fans, and since they come from the same pool these days, too many writers, do not think long term. They want that instant gratification, and they do not ask "Then what?" Look at the X-Men movies. Watching them I was reminded of something an editor up at DC said years ago about the Christopher Reeve Superman movies -- that it was fascinating to watch them make all the same mistakes the comics had made, in less time and with more money!
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
|
Valmor J. Pedretti Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 October 2011 Location: Brazil Posts: 786
|
Posted: 17 September 2012 at 7:34am | IP Logged | 2
|
|
|
I was probably born in the wrong age, because I can remember being a huge fan of Cyclops from day one while I can recall having many friends who would get into comics just because of Wolverine.
I can remember the deception of seeing Storm take him out on a duel. X-Factor was never enough (although seeing Scott drawn by Walt Simonson was great!) and then we had Jim Lee Cyclops and things srtarted to flush down the toilet.
Some of those friends who would bash Scott when we were kids are still reading Marvel Comics and they will tell me that "Scott is cool now! Now he's the character he was always supposed to be..."
Tsc.
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
| www
|
|
Bill Guerra Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 29 March 2012 Location: United States Posts: 1072
|
Posted: 17 September 2012 at 7:49am | IP Logged | 3
|
|
|
My cousin (who is 5 years younger than me), who has read comics on and off over the years, told me he hates Cyclops because he "always picked on Wolverine". I asked him if he actually paid attention to anything he's read.
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
|
Shawn Kane Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 November 2010 Location: United States Posts: 3239
|
Posted: 17 September 2012 at 8:18am | IP Logged | 4
|
|
|
It says alot about current Marvel when Axel Alonso calls Cyclops his favorite character. Kind of makes you wonder if he ever "got" him.
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
|
Anthony J Lombardi Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 January 2005 Location: United States Posts: 9410
|
Posted: 17 September 2012 at 8:31am | IP Logged | 5
|
|
|
But that is EXACTLY the kind of "instant gratification" I'm talking about. When it was Scott and Jean who were doing the will they/won't they dance, some fans clamored for them to get together. Most writers were savvy enough to realize that would be a mistake, but it happened eventually anyway. Then Wolverine was introduced into the equation, and the clamoring took on a different note. A big problem lies in the fact that too many fans, and since they come from the same pool these days, too many writers, do not think long term. They want that instant gratification, and they do not ask "Then what?" Look at the X-Men movies. Watching them I was reminded of something an editor up at DC said years ago about the Christopher Reeve Superman movies -- that it was fascinating to watch them make all the same mistakes the comics had made, in less time and with more money! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I remember wanting that instant satisfaction when I was younger. The writers back than understood building the drama. They understood that peeks and valleys there could never really be a end result the drama had to go on. Even when the payoff came it was short lived. Take in point Superman 2 the payoff of Lois and Clark being together. It was short lived because he's the hero and so the drama can go on.
Edited by Anthony J Lombardi on 17 September 2012 at 8:33am
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
|
Neil Brauer Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 10 February 2012 Location: United States Posts: 714
|
Posted: 17 September 2012 at 8:39am | IP Logged | 6
|
|
|
Storm take him out on a duel. .................... Looking back, I think that is where Claremont lost me. Storm turned punk was bad but I gave it the benefit of the doubt because I thought it may be a storyline set up. I don't know what he was thinking with Storm. Was it that after Jean was gone he focused of her? By virtue of her powers, she was already one of, if not the most powerful team member, but he had to go over-the-top with her. There was no need for all that. What purpose did it serve?
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
|
Stephen Robinson Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 5835
|
Posted: 17 September 2012 at 9:02am | IP Logged | 7
|
|
|
Re: "Shades of Gray":The classic Marvel characters had self-doubt but always did the right thing. DC characters would occasionally have self-doubt as well (in a way that was kids could relate to -- Batman worried that Robin thought Superman was a better partner and so on).But what I loved about Marvel (especially with Spider-Man) is that sometimes when you did the right thing, you didn't get a parade: People got it wrong, blamed you for things you didn't do, or thought you'd blown them off when in reality you were saving the world.Marvel in those days demonstrated that doing the right thing could be difficult and often didn't come with rewards of fame and riches. But you did it anyway. And it was damn inspiring.This is the end result of superheros no longer be written for kids. It's a shame. I would ask today's creators if these stories are really something they think would inspire kids and if not, why they chose to rob kids of the magic we all had.
Of course, the media doesn't help: A hero going bad or a hero dying will always get a headline but a hero triumphing over adversity is worth a yawn.
Edited by Stephen Robinson on 17 September 2012 at 9:03am
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
| www
|
|
Shawn Kane Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 November 2010 Location: United States Posts: 3239
|
Posted: 17 September 2012 at 9:07am | IP Logged | 8
|
|
|
I used to hold the first Claremont run as THE X-Men for me. A few years ago when I quit the X-Men during Matt Fraction's run, I realized that I had alot of X-Men comics but many of them were crappy. I first removed any issue written by Chuck Austen. I had only previously removed the Nightcrawler origin but decided that I liked almost NOTHING from his run. I then removed the Grant Morrison, Ed Brubaker and Joe Casey issues.They're all writers that I tend to like but not their X-Men runs. A removal of the Alan Davis stuff pretty much just left the Chris Claremont stuff, Giant Sized #1 and the pre-New X-Men issues that I own. I realized that I didn't really like the X-Men after #200. What did they give us? The Beyonder, Mutant Massacre, Inferno, Fall of the Mutants, the Outback X-Men, and the Banshee team before it all became Jim Lee's X-Men. Nothing that I would ever really want to go back and read. I wouldn't say that Claremont lost me but I certainly don't enjoy those issues enought to keep them. If those issues don't appeal to me then certainly this trainwreck of a franchise now will never appeal to me.
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
|
John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133279
|
Posted: 17 September 2012 at 9:13am | IP Logged | 9
|
|
|
I don't know what he was thinking with Storm. Was it that after Jean was gone he focused of her? •• In the first few months after I left, Storm DID pick up several of the "bits" Chris had wanted to do with Jean, that I'd said no to.
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
|
Neil Brauer Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 10 February 2012 Location: United States Posts: 714
|
Posted: 17 September 2012 at 9:19am | IP Logged | 10
|
|
|
I have the entire run from GS1-175 bagged and boarded. I liked Paul Smith's art or would've stopped sooner. I read later issues but my interest had dwindled. I probably have the later issues somewhere but not in the same long box. I tried many times to start reading the title again but it was never the same.
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
|
Brad Danson Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 02 May 2007 Posts: 1440
|
Posted: 17 September 2012 at 10:19am | IP Logged | 11
|
|
|
QUOTE:
I realized that I didn't really like the X-Men after #200 |
|
|
QUOTE:
I have the entire run from GS1-175 bagged and boarded. I liked Paul Smith's art or would've stopped sooner. |
|
|
I started "collecting" X-Men at #167 and held on until about #230...but even as a kid I knew that #200 was the point where I quit liking it. As an adult, I now see that there were serious diminishing returns after #175.
I challenge anyone to re-read X-Men after #200 (all the way to the Jim Lee issues) and tell me that they would find Wolverine a remotely likeable character if that was their discovery period. Unless someone has fetish for a know-it-all I just don't see it.
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
|
Michael Todd Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 07 September 2009 Location: United States Posts: 4115
|
Posted: 17 September 2012 at 11:27am | IP Logged | 12
|
|
|
One thing about Uncanny X-Men #200 that made it special to me, was that my hometown of Tallahassee, Florida gets mentioned.
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
| www
|
|