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Michael Penn
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Posted: 01 August 2012 at 6:34am | IP Logged | 1  

I do wonder, though, what evidence would at least begin to dissuade any anti-Stratfordians. Even if some diary entry from 1599 was discovered stating that the diarist had broken bread with the author, Mr. William Shakespeare, in his Stratford home, between lawsuits and the latest production of his play, maybe even something like that could be explained away as, well, the diarist just assumed the charlatan was the author and was not corrected by the Stratford man himself.

Or maybe I'm being hypothetically unfair...?
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Michael Penn
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Posted: 01 August 2012 at 12:09pm | IP Logged | 2  

Here's a question:

The Epistle Dedicatory to the First Folio (1623) states this about the Author:

"...he not having the fate, common with some, to be exequutor to his owne writings..."

How did "fate" prevent the Stratford Shakspere, assuming he was the author, from being executor to his work?

(Said Epistle dedicated the Folio to the Herbert brothers, one of whom was married to the daughter of ... Edward De Vere.)
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Glen Keith
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Posted: 01 August 2012 at 1:15pm | IP Logged | 3  

For the most part, plays in those days were written under a work for hire type contract. The theater troop owned the plays, and they were only printed when the troop felt that they had exhausted the performance potential. Even though Shakespeare was a shareholder in the King's Men, he was only one of many, and may not have had enough pull to claim the rights to his work.

Kind of the same thing as Stan Lee creating all those stories and characters for Marvel, and being the public face of the company, but still not owning or retaining the publication rights to his work.


Edited by Glen Keith on 01 August 2012 at 1:16pm
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Glen Keith
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Posted: 01 August 2012 at 7:15pm | IP Logged | 4  

"I do wonder, though, what evidence would at least begin to dissuade any anti-Stratfordians."
========================================
In my experience, when people get into these sorts of conspiratorial mindsets, nothing will dissuade them. All evidence, either by its absence or existence, is folded into the conspiracy framework. If a document were to make reference to a "William Shakespeare, Gent., sometimes spelled 'Shakspere',  playwright and actor from Stratford-Upon-Avon, part-time grain merchant" and then directly connected him to one or more of the plays, I would imagine that most Anti-Shakespeareans would simple see that as more evidence that he was a front man. Hell, even if a manuscript of Hamlet, written in secretary hand and signed "By William Shakespeare" were to turn up, I'm sure that the most diehard proponents would still find a way to deny it actually proved anything, in much the same way that Birthers still exist despite getting the long-form birth certificate that they claimed they wanted. At some point, these beliefs become more about the belief than they do about the facts.

This is especially true when it come to the absence of evidence. We often hear from Anti-Shakespeareans that certain types of evidence must exist, but we are never told why. The survival of evidence usually comes down to either chance or design. Things either exist into posterity because people go through the trouble to preserve an artifact (this is why so much of the surviving documentation is of dry legal matters), or because they just luck out and survive. The types of documents that the Anti-Shakespeareans wish for is the type which exist more by luck, so there is no reason it should still exist, no matter how much we wish it might. This also doesn't mean that it never existed. There are a number of lost plays by Aeschylus that did at one time exist. And one could say that considering how many of his plays have been preserved, that they should still exist, but I'm not holding my breath until I can read "The Myrmidons". The claim that certain types of evidence should exist is a non-starter, at least in this instance.
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Doug Campbell
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Posted: 01 August 2012 at 8:50pm | IP Logged | 5  

I suppose Michael that I may not be quite getting what sorts of documents you expect to find.  There really aren't any personal reflections of Shakespeare on his motivations or methods.  But then again, we really don't have the where, when, how, or why on so critical a topic as his married life either.  Did Shakespeare love Anne Hatheway?  Why did they marry?  Did he dally with other women?   Did he dally with other men?  Were they ever estranged or was the union a happy one?  We have no idea.  Between his marriage and his will, there is literally no documentation of Shakespeare's family life.  That fact has not prevented any number of people from trying to glean hints about Shakespeare love life from his sonnets and plays, but we'll never know for sure.  And yet no one suggests that he didn't father his own children.  We have no one suggesting that Oxford or Marlowe or Bacon warmed his bed while he was away in London.  I find it strange that it should be so with his plays.

One point I readily admit is that it is exceedingly hard to get any sort of a fix on Shakespeare as a flesh and blood individual, seperate from his art.  Even after reading a bit into his life, I have no real sense of what his character was like.  He was either a very private person or we've just lost too much evidence about him to say much with certainty, or both. That's disappointing given how glorious his work was.  Ever since he came to be crowned as the great genius of our language's literature in the eighteenth century, our lack of knowledge about his personality, combined with the banal, bourgeois nature of what we do know about him seems to have created a nigh irresitable temptation to fill in the gaps with fancy-- whether that involves going beyond the evidence in musing on Shakespeare's life or finding some sort of racier, more satisfying substitute to propose as the author in his stead.

Despite what Price writes, however, I don't think some of the gaps in his record are all that unusual. The one thing that does seem to have been unique about Shakespeare is that he worked his entire career for one theater troupe rather than as a freelancer, as was more typical for a playwright of the era.  That too woud have eliminated a great deal of the paper trail- as a shareholder in the Chamberlain's/King's Men would he really be meticulously documenting how much money he payed himself to write plays for his own company to be played by him and his friends as actors?  Beyond that, and the few reminiscences we have about the man from people like Greene, Digges, Hemings, Condell, and Jonson, there is silence.  But it's not a silence that strikes me as sinister or suspicious.  Unsatisfying, perhaps, but far from sufficient in my mind to raise serious doubts about his authorship, let alone enough to disqualify Shakespeare from his perch.
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Michael Penn
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Posted: 02 August 2012 at 4:46am | IP Logged | 6  

I suppose Michael that I may not be quite getting what sorts of documents you expect to find.

***

I'm not a historian of the period, so I can't fairly say I have legitimate expectations. I might just be a disgruntled fool! But what I think would be central to establishing Shakspere as Shakespeare would be any documents about his actual creative process.

When did he write any of the works. Not when were they published or began to appear or be staged etc. Some document that could begin to describe any dates for any work specifically tied to Shakspere himself.

Where did he write any of the works. Not assumptions about Shakspere's primary locales being Stratford and London and therefore somewhere thereabouts. Some document that could begin to describe any places for any work specifically tied to Shakspere himself.

Why did he write any of the works. Not assumptions based on events that occurred during a speculative chronology. Some document that could begin to describe how whatever Shakspere himself was doing at whatever place and at whatever time had any direct or even indirect link to any of the works.

How did he write any of the works. Not assumptions based on the works themselves and on that basis speculating that Shakspere must have known such and such and done such and such. Some document that shows his background, his training, his education, his erudition, his habits, his customs, his process, etc. Just any one document that tells us any one thing about Shakspere himself working as the author.

Maybe this seems like asking for the moon, but of all these categories and of all the myriad of possible, conceivable documents that just might have survived, not a single one of them has. I mean, not even a single solitary scrap! Nothing! Meanwhile, we have a plethora of documents about Shakspere's activities, both business-related and even highly personal, all that has survived, and yet not a whisper about the when, where, why, and how of his being the author. So, this is as the Oxfordians assert: everything about Shakspere the man tells us NOTHING about Shakespeare the author.

(I could say "almost" not a whisper because, as I've noted before, I'm still not convinced that the "shake-scene" attack was not against Shakspere and it seems to me that it was more than his being merely a presumptuous actor since he is attacked through a pun on an early Shakespeare play. But I would not be close-minded about this if an Oxfordian text is out there to convince me otherwise. Perhaps the Ogburn that I haven't gotten to?)

+++++

...unique about Shakespeare is that he worked his entire career for one theater troupe rather than as a freelancer, as was more typical for a playwright of the era.  That too woud have eliminated a great deal of the paper trail-...

***

To say he "worked" for just one troupe is not to say that the record shows he was the exclusive playwright for that same troupe. Oxfordians would want this point to be made explicitly clear. Shakspere may have been directly associated with one troupe at a time but nothing anywhere states that this association was as playwright.


Doug, it's nice conversing with you. I'm not any clearer myself on the subject, but probably that's a good thing. Just a sign I need to learn more, which is always exciting.



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Mason Meomartini
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Posted: 02 August 2012 at 9:02am | IP Logged | 7  

JB, have you seen Joe Nickell's article in Skeptical Inquirer, "Did Shakespeare Write 'Shakespeare'?  Much Ado About Nothing"?  It's online if you haven't.  I've only read the two-paragraph introduction but based on that you'd probably have some reactions you could put in a letter to the magazine.
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David Danion
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Posted: 02 August 2012 at 3:46pm | IP Logged | 8  

I'm fairly new to the whole authorship discussion, but I do have a question. I assume DeVere has had works published under his own name, either during his lifetime or posthumously. If so, why are those works not held in the same regard as those published under the name Shakespeare?

It would seem to me that if DeVere was the author of the Shakespeare works, that his own writings would be equally well known and regarded. It also seems highly unlikely that "Shakspere" would have only attached his name to the works that would go on to be considered the greatest of the English language, but not the ones that would remain relatively obscure.

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Mark Haslett
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Posted: 02 August 2012 at 4:13pm | IP Logged | 9  

Devil's advocating your devil's advocacy, David: Can you honestly name all the works attributed to Shakespeare? Are none of them relatively obscure?
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David Danion
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Posted: 02 August 2012 at 4:57pm | IP Logged | 10  

Sorry, I should have been clearer. What I mean is that everybody has heard of Shakespeare; not so for DeVere. If he wrote the Shakespeare works (and I'm not saying he did or didn't - I don't know enough about the subject to form an opinion at this point) it seems to me that all of his writings would be as well known as those of Shakespeare.
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Glen Keith
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Posted: 02 August 2012 at 9:23pm | IP Logged | 11  

David, there are 20 or so poems that are usually attributed to De Vere, some of which may or may not actually be his.* They've been traditionally looked upon as rather minor, or trifling affairs, until J. Thomas Looney resurrected them as evidence for his claim that De Vere wrote the works of Shakespeare. Indeed, it's likely that the only reason that you can find them so readily online is because of that "controversy", and not for their literary value. Even those poems that Oxenfordians accept as genuine De Vere are usually proclaimed as juvenalia, or practice poems.

What I've always found amusing about this is that De Vere was a published poet in his life time. He was even acknowledged in print as a playwright. Yet, we are informed, that it was the shame of being published, or even known as a poet that necessitated that his work be published pseudonymously. But if he was already known as a poet and playwright, if he had already had works published under his name, wouldn't the damage to his reputation already have been done?

*Hows that for a laugh? There actually IS a De Vere authorship controversy!
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Mark Haslett
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Posted: 02 August 2012 at 11:01pm | IP Logged | 12  

Glen: What I've always found amusing about this is that De Vere was a published poet in his life time. He was even acknowledged in print as a playwright. Yet, we are informed, that it was the shame of being published, or even known as a poet that necessitated that his work be published pseudonymously. But if he was already known as a poet and playwright, if he had already had works published under his name, wouldn't the damage to his reputation already have been done?

**

You have always been amused with this, I am to understand. But it sounds like you are amusing yourself-- who are you referring to when you appear to speak for the Oxford case? Obviously the matter is not as simple as you have been understanding it or no one above a fourth grade education would find it interesting.

What I have found submitted as possible reasons for DeVere's original anonymity regarding the works later attributed to Shakespeare relates to the political content inherent in these works. The innuendo, the framing of English history, and the particular troubles DeVere may have been facing at the time.

Yes, if we make one side a straw man-- it becomes "amusing" to see how easily the other side wins! Not.
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