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Michael Penn Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 April 2006 Location: United States Posts: 12767
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Posted: 30 July 2012 at 1:32pm | IP Logged | 1
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I know of no school of Oxfordian interpretation. From what I've read, Oxfordians acknowledge what are legitimate interpretative methods no differently than Stratfordians. The difference, according to what I've seen Oxfordians state, is that Stratfordians have been duped. Shakspere as Shakespeare is a fraud, and Stratfordians either intentionally or not fudge the facts because they begin with assuming that fraud is the truth. Oxfordians are not offering an alternative interpretive model. They are saying that Stratfordians are so invested in the Shakespeare mythology that they can't even admit the facts -- or the lack thereof.
As John Adams said, facts are stubborn things. But as far as Oxfordians go, that's nothing compared to the stubbornness of people when you challenge their long-cherished myths!
Edited by Michael Penn on 30 July 2012 at 1:34pm
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Barry Maine Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 06 June 2012 Posts: 152
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Posted: 30 July 2012 at 1:42pm | IP Logged | 2
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Interesting ideas, but I still haven't received a sufficient enough argument to get me to go against the grain.
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Doug Campbell Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 29 March 2008 Location: United States Posts: 367
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Posted: 30 July 2012 at 2:47pm | IP Logged | 3
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Michael: I know of no school of Oxfordian interpretation. From what I've read, Oxfordians acknowledge what are legitimate interpretative methods no differently than Stratfordians. The difference, according to what I've seen Oxfordians state, is that Stratfordians have been duped. Shakspere as Shakespeare is a fraud, and Stratfordians either intentionally or not fudge the facts because they begin with assuming that fraud is the truth. Oxfordians are not offering an alternative interpretive model. They are saying that Stratfordians are so invested in the Shakespeare mythology that they can't even admit the facts -- or the lack thereof.
Ah. I'm not sure I'd agree that the different starting assumptions brandished by Oxfordians and Shakespeareans don't constitute a different interpretive paradigm. I'm also unsure one can unintentionally "fudge" a fact. But I think that gets more into semantics than anything else. I don't substantially dispute your characterization of the Oxfordian stance.
Michael: As John Adams said, facts are stubborn things. But as far as Oxfordians go, that's nothing compared to the stubbornness of people when you challenge their long-cherished myths!
Indeed. But on the other hand, after 92 years of failure, what else could they say? They have to proffer some reason that their fringe theory hasn't won over a significant share of popular opinion, let alone scholarly opinion. They either have to locate the problem in the weaknesses of their own argument or in the stubbornness of their opponents. Again, though, how likely is it that people are more dogmatically attached to the idea of William Shakespeare than to Church-sponsored geocentrism or Mosaic authorship of the Torah? There are some hold-outs on those topics even today, but scholarly majorities were won over by the strength of the evidence in fairly short order in both cases. It is peculiar that one can't say the same for the Oxfordian thesis if it is supposedly so well grounded in the facts. Even with the internet, which allows nonsense to grow like kudzu, it's difficult to say the idea has made much headway in the past 20 years or so. But I perhaps digress back into the argument itself, rather than your own meta-argument. Why do you find the idea of "fudging the facts" so interesting in relation to this topic Michael?
Edited by Doug Campbell on 30 July 2012 at 2:48pm
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Mark Haslett Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 6510
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Posted: 30 July 2012 at 3:10pm | IP Logged | 4
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Doug: Again, though, how likely is it that people are more dogmatically attached to the idea of William Shakespeare than to Church-sponsored geocentrism or Mosaic authorship of the Torah?
** This seems like a false comparison to me. The central impulse of these other studies pressured the acceptance of new, revolutionary thoughts. The wide, observable, obvious-once-you-look-at-it nature of these revolutions in thinking could not be held back.
The authorship question has none of these pressures. The current theories are working just fine, thank you, and the "fringe" has no real axe to swing. If everyone accepted the Oxford theory tomorrow, it would be a publicity sensation and fascinating turn of events, but it would not signify much in the way of human understanding. It would not "shift the ground beneath our feet" in any comparable way.
The inertia of the current, workable understanding more than accounts for why such a circumstantial case as the Oxford Theory can be held-off. It may easily be held off for a lot longer-- even if it ultimately turns out to be true.
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Michael Penn Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 April 2006 Location: United States Posts: 12767
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Posted: 30 July 2012 at 3:45pm | IP Logged | 5
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I'm not sure I'd agree that the different starting assumptions brandished by Oxfordians and Shakespeareans don't constitute a different interpretive paradigm.
***
Whether Oxfordians begin with an assumption is certainly a point of controversy between the two. Stratfordians may assert that Oxfordians begin with assumptions. But the Oxfordian claim is that examining the facts without a preexisting bias for Shakspere as Shakespeare, an assumption so hoary and well-venerated that it is akin to a religious conviction, is their "method," which isn't really a method (or paradigm or etc.) at all but the most direct view of the facts -- and the lack thereof.
++++
Why do you find the idea of "fudging the facts" so interesting in relation to this topic?
***
Because if either the Oxfordian or Stratfordian perspectives are fraudulent, and no doubt either side thinks so, I don't think somebody very interested in the debate (me!) can get to the bottom of the distance between the two sides without examining if there's not some rank dishonesty about... or at least some significant evading, dodging, avoiding, or cheating -- fudging! -- going on. People may be fudging the facts unintentionally in the sense of perpetuating the pre-fudged myths about the Author without ever having done the fudging themselves.
Plus, I like the alliteration (fudgin' da facts!) and... I like fudge.
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Doug Campbell Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 29 March 2008 Location: United States Posts: 367
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Posted: 30 July 2012 at 8:55pm | IP Logged | 6
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Michael: Whether Oxfordians begin with an assumption is certainly a point of controversy between the two. Stratfordians may assert that Oxfordians begin with assumptions. But the Oxfordian claim is that examining the facts without a preexisting bias for Shakspere as Shakespeare, an assumption so hoary and well-venerated that it is akin to a religious conviction, is their "method," which isn't really a method (or paradigm or etc.) at all but the most direct view of the facts -- and the lack thereof.
Of course Oxfordians say they start without bias. So too would a goodly number of Shakespeareans make a similar assertion about their own views. In neither case is that exactly true, however. If Shakespeareans are ensnared by the inertia of tradition which they bring with them in evaluating the evidence, Oxfordians likewise tend to have preconceived notions before they ever approach the documents. Looney, Ogburn, Price, and the rest all make explicit assumptions about the amount of familiarity they feel the author must have had with certain topics: aristocratic mores, courtly manners, military life, law, European geography, etc., and find Shakespeare's own background in those matters wanting. Hence they search out someone like Oxford. But that approach depends upon the presupposition that no mere bourgeois actor could possibly conjure so many topics so convincingly on the basis of imagination and a few well-chosen books, no matter what the evidence itself says. Michael: Because if either the Oxfordian or Stratfordian perspectives are fraudulent, and no doubt either side thinks so, I don't think somebody very interested in the debate (me!) can get to the bottom of the distance between the two sides without examining if there's not some rank dishonesty about... or at least some significant evading, dodging, avoiding, or cheating -- fudging! -- going on. People may be fudging the facts unintentionally in the sense of perpetuating the pre-fudged myths about the Author without ever having done the fudging themselves.
Plus, I like the alliteration (fudgin' da facts!) and... I like fudge.
I see. If it seemed like I was being overly elliptical about the notion of "fudging the facts" it was because the phrase seemed to imply a deliberate attempt to dissemble or deceive. I have no desire to needlessly antagonize our host, a creator whose work I admire, and at whose sufferance we all are able to hold these sorts of discussions. I assume Oxfordians generally present what they believe to be true arguments.
On the other hand, though, it seems to me that the partisans of Oxford do indeed "fudge the facts" in the manner to which you refer. Some Oxfordians are intelligent, articulate, and well-read, but they almost all present arguments that make little sense in the light of Elizabethan/Jacobean culture, or, even worse, which violate some of the more basic premises of evaluating historical evidence.
I sometimes try to step back and appreciate how Oxfordian arguments must seem to those who believe them. I ultimately have a hard time seeing how they can make sense to anyone, however. It is an ironclad documentary fact that "William Shakespeare" (with allowance for orthographic variation) is frequently identified as a poet and playwright on title pages, in government records, and in private papers during his lifetime and shortly after his death. It is likewise an incontestable fact that no other person's name was ever associated with the poems and plays in question. And it is further undeniably true that Edward de Vere, the Earl Oxford. was never, not even once, explicitly linked to any work of Shakespearean literature.
Any argument which seeks to deny those premises is, in my opinion, fact fudgery of the basest level, to the point where it absolutely wonders me that there is a "question" at all.
Are you truly as agnostic about this as you appear Michael? If so, what are the primary sticking points in your mind?
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Doug Campbell Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 29 March 2008 Location: United States Posts: 367
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Posted: 30 July 2012 at 9:20pm | IP Logged | 7
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Mark: This seems like a false comparison to me. The central impulse of these other studies pressured the acceptance of new, revolutionary thoughts. The wide, observable, obvious-once-you-look-at-it nature of these revolutions in thinking could not be held back.
The authorship question has none of these pressures. The current theories are working just fine, thank you, and the "fringe" has no real axe to swing. If everyone accepted the Oxford theory tomorrow, it would be a publicity sensation and fascinating turn of events, but it would not signify much in the way of human understanding. It would not "shift the ground beneath our feet" in any comparable way.
The inertia of the current, workable understanding more than accounts for why such a circumstantial case as the Oxford Theory can be held-off. It may easily be held off for a lot longer-- even if it ultimately turns out to be true.
I hesitate to take issue with so reasonable a post, but in the interests of vigorous discourse: while I will grant that a Copernican analogy isn't entirely apt, it seems to me that the question of whether or not Moses wrote the first five books of the Hebrew Bible is almost exactly parallel to the "question" of Shakespearean authorship.
Indeed, of the well springs of Western civilization, it seems to me that only figures like Moses or Homer might be directly comparable to the case of Shakespeare in terms of longterm cultural significance. The works of all three have been called into question from various sectors. In all three cases, we have essentially a literary question being asked. In all three cases, there would have been no direct impact that the disqualification of the traditionally accepted author might have had on the daily life of an average individual, even if the cultural ramifications would have been enormous.
Yet to assert in 2012 that Moses did not pen the Torah is to be comfortably within the scholarly mainstream. To claim today that Homer did not compose the Iliad is to stake out a respectable position even if there is no scholarly consensus in that regard. But to avow that Shakespeare did not write his plays and poems, however, is to proclaim oneself to be a fruitloop from a scholarly perspective.
Maybe you're right that it will just take a bit more time for Oxfordian arguments to win the day. After nearly a century, however, I find it a bit more likely that the arguments just were never very good to begin with, and were never persuasive to those who actually know much about Elizabethan/Jacobean society.
Edited by Doug Campbell on 30 July 2012 at 9:34pm
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Michael Penn Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 April 2006 Location: United States Posts: 12767
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Posted: 31 July 2012 at 6:22am | IP Logged | 8
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It is an ironclad documentary fact that "William Shakespeare" (with allowance for orthographic variation) is frequently identified as a poet and playwright on title pages, in government records, and in private papers during his lifetime and shortly after his death. It is likewise an incontestable fact that no other person's name was ever associated with the poems and plays in question. And it is further undeniably true that Edward de Vere, the Earl Oxford. was never, not even once, explicitly linked to any work of Shakespearean literature. Any argument which seeks to deny those premises is, in my opinion, fact fudgery of the basest level, to the point where it absolutely wonders me that there is a "question" at all.
***
I'm not even remotely an expert on the Oxfordian argument, but I don't think it denies that all variants of Shakespeare are exclusively identified as the Author (except when the works are Anonymous, which I understand is to Oxfordians hardly a trivial exception). I think their argument is that Shakespeare is a pseudonym. How it came to be that isn't something I'm clear about because from what I've read some assert that the works somehow got into the hands of Will Shakspere, and they were published under all the variants of his name, and that I can at least follow along with. But others double-up the claim and say that "Shake-Speare" was a deliberate nom de plume that plays off Oxford's crest with a boar shaking a spear (although whether it was a spear is also doubtful), and this to me seems far too coincidental to be plausible -- the charlatan who stole the plays had a name which in variant forms was exactly the depicting of the real author's family crest? That, I really don't buy.
In any event, the Oxfordian argument does dispose of all authorship attributions to "William Shakespeare" as long as that name can be taken as a pseudonym, and they say that it can because of this: there is absolutely zero evidence about when, where, why, and how the Stratford man, Will Shakspere, created these plays and poems, and that lack of evidence combined with the plethora of evidence about Shakspere's other activities is the key. Oxfordians argue that only by assuming beforehand that Shakspere was Shakespeare can there be any but the most rank speculation about his being the author: not being named the author, but being the author. If you don't make that assumption, everything we know for sure about Will Shakspere still tells us nothing at all about his creation of these works. Everything tells us... nothing!
Now, I don't count myself as an Oxfordian, and I'm definitely not a historian of this period or Shakespeare specifically, but I also don't know of any evidence that show the when, where, why, and how regarding Will Shakspere's creation of even one line of the Shakespeare corpus.
Does that mean he was not the author? Not necessarily.
But my whole case for Shakspere as Shakespeare comes down to this:
Shakspere's theater-world "debut" links him, the Stratford man himself, in the "upstart crow" passage directly to HENRY VI in 1592 -- I don't suppose that Shakspere back then was already so notably stealing Oxford's "secret" works that he would be openly attacked via a parody of one of this play's lines. The same passage also puns on Shakspere as "Shake," which shows that despite all the variables of the name, in his earliest literary-related reference, we get the famous "Shake" pronunciation, even if it is a joking attack. I just don't buy the coincidence of Oxford's "boar shaking a spear" (which I understand might be a bad translation of the Latin in any event), because not only is it too neat a coincidence, but it muddles and muddies the untold story of the purported Shakspere-Oxford connection. If Shakspere had in the late 1590s somehow gotten hold of Oxford's work and started publishing them to make money, and that's how, because of the inconsistencies in Elizabethan orthography and pronunciation, the plays became "by Shakespeare" (and variants), I could follow along. But to say that Shake-speare was Oxford's nom de plume based on his crest and that it just coincidentally was the "same" name as Shakspere, that I can't follow along. I realize the Oxfordian argument is that Shakspere is not the same name -- but the consonance of SHKPR and variants plus the 1592 "Shake-scene" pun indicate to me that they are.
I also am not convinced that the definitive posthumous connection of the Author to Stratford and Avon is meant to be linked to Oxford and not Shakspere. Shakspere actually was born, lived, and died at Stratford-upon-Avon -- he clearly was so linked with the place that his memory was physically honored there instead of London. I'm just not at all convinced by the Oxfordian coincidence of De Vere owning an Avon estate (and he wasn't the only person with one) or living only near but not even in the Stratford theater district (of which there were several others all around London).
Oxford had a coat of arms featuring a spear (maybe). But so did Shakspere, who did not inherit but chose his own crest, and because of that it has been stated by historians that Shakspere in his crest deliberately chose to visually pun on a portion of his name, even if it was more commonly pronounced "sper" instead of spear. If the "Shake-scene" passage a few years earlier punned on the first part of his name and then later Shakspere himself punned on the second part, all taking place in this very punny Elizabethan age, it seems quite plausible that Shakspere is just a small step away from Shake-Spear -- and no complexity in that story. Just then standard punning on a man's actual name.
Again, the Digges' Stratford reference. De Vere lived his final years and was buried in Hackney. Yes, it was just two miles distant from Stratford in Greater London, but Hackney wasn't Stratford. Stratford in London is not where Oxford lived or worked. I don't know that he was at all associated with it during his life (was he?). I also don't know that if the plays of "Shakespeare" were especially associated with the theater district in Stratford, London (was it?). Meanwhile, if Digges meant Shakspere's Stratford(-upon-Avon), well, that is itself a place called Stratford, where Shakspere was born, lived and died. Again, on this one point, the case for Shakspere seems so simple that instead suggesting Digges meant to refer to De Vere living and dying in Hackney via a reference to the relatively nearby Stratford in London seems needlessly complex.
On these points, at least, I think the case for Shakspere is much more simple than the case for Oxford.
Of course, Oxfordians might well admit this and say, sure -- but what about EVERYTHING ELSE...?! Put up the Stratford man as author and you have to essentially assume on the basis of no evidence at all EVERYTHING that could show the when, where, why and how of Shakspere the Author.
It's troubling...
++++++
Are you truly as agnostic about this as you appear Michael?
***
Are you asking if I'm sincerely engaged in this topic?
I would have hoped my participation showed that unmistakably!
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Doug Campbell Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 29 March 2008 Location: United States Posts: 367
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Posted: 31 July 2012 at 1:30pm | IP Logged | 9
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Michael: Are you asking if I'm sincerely engaged in this topic? I would have hoped my participation showed that unmistakably!
It does. I just meant that your replies are often so sphinx-like that it's difficult to tell whether or not you personally believe a statement or are playing devil's advocate. And I'm curious about what you think since I respect your intellect and it's clear you've given the topic a more-than-cursory examination.
If your doubts hinge on the supposed lack of evidence about "when, where, why, and how" Shakespeare wrote the plays and poems, I have a few thoughts.
Oxfordians see something sinister and suspicious in the lack of more personal documentary evidence regarding Shakespeare. Indeed, JB has proclaimed on any number of occasions that Shakespeare's life is well-documented in every area but his literary activities, and that this gap thus constitutes a smoking gun in regards to his fraud. That's not really true, however. We know next to nothing about almost all of Shakespeare's personal life, including the part revolving around the plays and poems. What was Shakespeare's love life like? What were his religious convictions? His political opinions? His relations with family members, friends, and associates? We have only conjecture because solid documentary evidence is missing for almost all of his private life. In such a context, a lack of evidence regarding him sitting at his desk penning plays and poems hardly seems sinister.
Through into the mix a few other factors:
1) Theater was considered to be disposable entertainment rather than high art at the time, so few people would have thought the career of even a popular playwright like Shakespeare worth documenting (including apparently the man himself!). Paper was expensive, and any scrap not considered indispensable was recycled in a variety of ways. Price's notorious chart comparing Shakespeare's paper trail with that of a dozen of his contemporaries ignores the fact that those dozen represent almost the entirety of our knowledge about the vibrant world of Elizabethan theater which would have undoubtedly included dozens if not hundreds more authors. Most of these men are so fully lost to us that we don't even know their names. So again, the lack of evidence for Shakespeare is hardly unusual.
2) Fifty years after Shakespeare's death, Cromwell's puritan dictatorship closed all of London's theaters and forbade playing as an ungodly activity for a good decade or so. Under these circumstances, theater went from disposable entertainment to a sinful, criminal activity. This campaign against theater has robbed us of even more documents related to theatrical careers.
3) And fire has consumed still more. Whether we reference the Great London Fire of 1666 or the burning to the ground of the Globe Theater itself in 1613, presumably with many of the records and manuscripts of Shakespeare's theater company, other evidence has gone up in smoke.
Against such a tumultuous backdrop, is it really so surprising that 500 years after the fact we lack as many documents as we would wish about the English language's most celebrated author?
And even in the scenario you've posited, where Shakespeare somehow acquired plays which he didn't write and passed them off as his own, the same information is still missing. We still could expect there would have been personal references to him as an author, assuming everyone fell for the sham, or references to him as a charlatan if they weren't fooled. A gap is a gap whether we're talking about a "gentle Will" or a "slick Willy."
In Elizabethan/Jacobean England as today, a name on a title page usually designated one thing: authorship. Lacking any evidence that someone other than Shakespeare wrote the plays, he must be our most likely candidate, regardless of how many other things we would like to know about the man himself that are no longer documented.
Edited by Doug Campbell on 31 July 2012 at 1:31pm
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Michael Penn Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 April 2006 Location: United States Posts: 12767
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Posted: 31 July 2012 at 4:07pm | IP Logged | 10
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Against such a tumultuous backdrop, is it really so surprising that 500 years after the fact we lack as many documents as we would wish about the English language's most celebrated author?
***
That so many documents specifically about Will Shakspere have survived disrepute, paper-costs, theater-closings, plagues, fires, etc., even those that directly relate to his connection to the theater, down to personal anecdotes about the man, and yet not a single one of them describe in any way his actual work as the author -- this is what it seems to me the Oxfordians are concerned with: the singular disappearance of every such document.
Singular in the sense that if they existed every one of them has vanished and singular in the sense that such a total vanishing act is unique among his contemporaries. That they are a few of the many Elizabethan playwrights isn't necessarily cherrypicking evidence since Shakespeare was noted as a great author among those contemporaries. He was hardly by repute a piker! By no means has every conceivable document detailing the full scope of Shakspere's life survived -- but given that he was the Author, that his being so of necessity had to have been the all-consuming work of his adult life, for at least 15 years and maybe more, how could there just be... nothing?
+++++
And even in the scenario you've posited, where Shakespeare somehow acquired plays which he didn't write and passed them off as his own, the same information is still missing. We still could expect there would have been personal references to him as an author, assuming everyone fell for the sham, or references to him as a charlatan if they weren't fooled. A gap is a gap whether we're talking about a "gentle Will" or a "slick Willy."
***
But what if virtually nobody cared? What if Oxford being the Author was among the few of the upper crust in the know an "open secret," and the works themselves somehow got out anonymously and Shakspere latched onto them and started publishing them under his name and none of it mattered to the middle and lower classes, that his doing so would have been irrelevant to virtually everybody even if they had known what he was up to, and perhaps only a small theater crowd was aware that Shakspere was definitely not the author but were perfectly fine with his publishing these works and they never felt a need to call him out? I can definitely at least see a scenario where all this is perfectly plausible.
++++
...your replies are often so sphinx-like that it's difficult to tell whether or not you personally believe a statement or are playing devil's advocate. And I'm curious about what you think since I respect your intellect and it's clear you've given the topic a more-than-cursory examination.
***
I assure you that's not true! I've read just a smattering, a few Stratfordian books and a few against, and I'm trying to understand through discussion. Honestly, I'm not playing the lawyer here! I've tried to be straight about what I think about Shakspere as Shakespeare (yes, I buy the history/myth), but... it bugs me that I might be wrong.
I so want to sit for a good long stretch and really focus on the Ogburn tome. That it impressed the hell out of David McCullough impresses me, I admit. It's just so hard between all these kiddies around me, from teens to toddlers, and constant work, and the (lovely) wife, and whatnot!
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Doug Campbell Byrne Robotics Member
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Posted: 01 August 2012 at 5:44am | IP Logged | 11
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Michael: That so many documents specifically about Will Shakspere have survived disrepute, paper-costs, theater-closings, plagues, fires, etc., even those that directly relate to his connection to the theater, down to personal anecdotes about the man, and yet not a single one of them describe in any way his actual work as the author -- this is what it seems to me the Oxfordians are concerned with: the singular disappearance of every such document.
Singular in the sense that if they existed every one of them has vanished and singular in the sense that such a total vanishing act is unique among his contemporaries. That they are a few of the many Elizabethan playwrights isn't necessarily cherrypicking evidence since Shakespeare was noted as a great author among those contemporaries. He was hardly by repute a piker! By no means has every conceivable document detailing the full scope of Shakspere's life survived -- but given that he was the Author, that his being so of necessity had to have been the all-consuming work of his adult life, for at least 15 years and maybe more, how could there just be... nothing?
Here I must protest. It would seem that you have bought into an anti-Shakespearean line of argument that I find to be fact fudgification most foul. There's not nothing. There are are numerous references to Shakespeare as an author above and beyond the title pages, both during his life and shortly after his death. Anti-Shakespeareans discount such references because they don't specify "and when I say Shakespeare, I really mean the guy from Stratford, a man whom I personal knew and frequently ate burritos with!" They certainly don't apply those same standards to, say, documents referencing Marlowe or Fletcher. If they did, we would have dozens of "authorship questions." The Oxfordian standard for evidence is designed to exclude Shakespeare. It has nothing to do with how historians really operate.
But what if virtually nobody cared? What if Oxford being the Author was among the few of the upper crust in the know an "open secret," and the works themselves somehow got out anonymously and Shakspere latched onto them and started publishing them under his name and none of it mattered to the middle and lower classes, that his doing so would have been irrelevant to virtually everybody even if they had known what he was up to, and perhaps only a small theater crowd was aware that Shakspere was definitely not the author but were perfectly fine with his publishing these works and they never felt a need to call him out? I can definitely at least see a scenario where all this is perfectly plausible.
That makes one of us. It doesn't seem plausible at all to me. Theater wasn't high art, but it was a craft and it's easy to see from the documents that those involved took pride in doing it well, engaged in personal rivalries, and got annoyed when they were copied-- witness the "upstart crowe" stuff which takes aim at Shakespeare for following Marlowe's Tamburlaine a bit too closely.
In such a competitive environment, I can't see a blatant fraud being indulged without comment, let alone being effusively praised, as Shakespeare was. That scenario just doesn't make sense to me.
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Michael Penn Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 April 2006 Location: United States Posts: 12767
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Posted: 01 August 2012 at 6:22am | IP Logged | 12
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It would seem that you have bought into an anti-Shakespearean line of argument that I find to be fact fudgification most foul. There's not nothing. There are are numerous references to Shakespeare as an author above and beyond the title pages, both during his life and shortly after his death.
***
References to Shakespeare as an author or Shakspere the author? I hope this doesn't seem like a quibble because I do think it's a serious point of inquiry, even if one is a true blue Stratfordian. Again, what interests me, inter alia, about the Oxfordian argument is their assertion that no document has survived that describes the when, where, why, and how of Shakspere as Shakespeare. When did he write anything? Where did he write anything? Why did he write anything? How did he write anything? Is there a single source? I don't think this is a matter of differing interpretation of the same evidence between the two camps. It seems to me a dispute about the meaning of the lack of evidence. Although, if you are saying the Stratfordians have such evidence -- and this is not about "I hereby witnessed Will Shakspere of Stratford with pen in hand etc." -- then I'd certainly love to read about it. Does McCrea or somebody else go through this, in case you'd just want to refer me to a book and make it easier?
+++++++
That makes one of us. It doesn't seem plausible at all to me. Theater wasn't high art, but it was a craft and it's easy to see from the documents that those involved took pride in doing it well, engaged in personal rivalries, and got annoyed when they were copied-- witness the "upstart crowe" stuff which takes aim at Shakespeare for following Marlowe's Tamburlaine a bit too closely.
***
But let's say the real author was Oxford and among his upper class this might have been an "open secret" and the works left that class with virtually total anonymity -- either nobody knew that Oxford was the author, so there's nobody who even could defend him or be annoyed on his behalf, or those that knew Oxford was the author knew better than to out him, and of course Oxford would not be defending himself.
Oh, and on the matter of "pride," don't the Oxfordians score somewhat of a point in discussing that the record is completely void in terms of the pride you'd expect that Will Shakspere had in his own work?
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