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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133560
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Posted: 28 July 2012 at 11:31am | IP Logged | 1
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Wandering around online, I came upon a bio page for Edward de Vere, 17th Earl of Oxford, in the online version of the Encylopedia Brittanica.The article is mostly straight facts, even allowing for the many coincidences that connect Shakespeare and de Vere (rather more snug a fit than with the Stratford man, in fact!) but ends with this: "A major difficulty in the Oxfordian theory, however, is his death date (1604), because, according to standard chronology, 14 of Shakespeare’s plays, including many of the most important ones, were apparently written after that time. The debate, however, remained lively into the early 21st century." There is a surprising omission in this seemingly innocuous paragraph, one I would not expect of so worthy a tome as the Brittanica. And that is that the "standard chronology" is a series of conjectures BASED on the life of the Stratford man. "If he was living here and doing this, then he probably was also writing this. And if he wrote this, then, then he probably wrote this other piece when he was over here doing this. . . " And so on. Thus, de Vere's death in 1604 actually presents NO barrier to him having written those remaining 14 plays. The very fact that he was some 14 years older than Stratord Will easily shifts the entire chronology of the Works back by an equivalent span. De Vere was known to be writing poems from his late teens, when the Stratford man was a mere babe. Some are quick to point out topical references in those later plays, which obviously could not have been included if de Vere was dead when they were written. But they COULD have been included if someone else added them. Today, the works of Shakespeare are treated as Holy Writ, and messing about with the text is largely frowned upon, but Back in the Day, it was common practice for actors to extemporize, ad-lib, toss in references to the amusement of the crowds. Even Shakespeare's reference to "this wooden O", in HENRY V, was routinely modified to fit the theater in which the play was being performed. As I have mentioned before, I once saw a performance of THE MIKADO in which the Executioner's Song included a reference to Rubics Cubes, a toy invented long after the death of Gilbert and Sullivan. Does this prove G&S did not write THE MIKADO? An interesting point along these lines -- the contemporary references -- has been made in that so many are conspicuous by their absence in plays first performed after 1604. Shakespeare peppered his works with references to what was then Modern Science, for instance. Hamlet's suggestion to Ophelia that she "doubt that the Sun doth move" was included as a nod to what was then a new thought. But, as one instance, a spectacular supernova, visible after de Vere's death in 1604, oddly finds no reference in the works. Ah, well. As most of you can guess, I have no plans to stop flogging this particular horse. I mention this as it illustrates how deeply ingrained is the prejudice toward the Stratford man, that even the Brittanica can (inadvertently?) skew its reportage in his favor.
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Robbie Parry Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 June 2007 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 12186
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Posted: 28 July 2012 at 11:50am | IP Logged | 2
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An interesting subject. I only read something recently in the Daily Express. It was a very brief article. As interesting as this subject is, it's inaccessible in a certain sense, I do not know where to start.
So, Mr Byrne, as my Kindle is long overdue for some new books, are there at least 2, preferably 3, books on the subject which could you please recommend?
Thanks!
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133560
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Posted: 28 July 2012 at 12:00pm | IP Logged | 3
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I don't know how Kindle-friendly they are, but there are several good places to start.I would recommend Diana Price's "Shakespeare - An Unorthodox Biography". Ms Price does not have "a horse in the race" and offers no candidate for the authorship. She does, however, thoroughly demolish the Stratford man. Richard Whalen's "Shakespeare - Who Was He?" presents a concise overview, and is one of the shorter volumes on the subject, if you want to learn to swim without fear of drowning! A much large tome is Charlton Ogburn's "The Mysterious William Shakespeare". And then there is the granddaddy of the modern theory, "Shakespeare Identified in Edward de Vere", by John Thomas Looney (pronounced Loh-nee, but the damage is done. . . ) You can also take a quick look HERE.
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Robbie Parry Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 June 2007 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 12186
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Posted: 28 July 2012 at 12:06pm | IP Logged | 4
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Thank you for the recommendations, Mr Byrne. And the website link, too.
I wasn't lazy in not searching because I would have if need be, but as you know the subject, I guessed you might be able to name a few books. I'll see if they have them on the Kindle or even as books (but I really do not have any shelf space for any more books!).
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133560
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Posted: 28 July 2012 at 12:12pm | IP Logged | 5
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I wasn't lazy in not searching…•• Did not for one moment think you were!
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Robbie Parry Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 June 2007 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 12186
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Posted: 28 July 2012 at 12:18pm | IP Logged | 6
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That's fine, I know you didn't, I just always feel lazy asking anybody for recommendations. Feel like I should be doing the homework myself, but always appreciate recommendations from anyone.
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Doug Campbell Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 29 March 2008 Location: United States Posts: 367
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Posted: 28 July 2012 at 1:39pm | IP Logged | 7
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JB:There is a surprising omission in this seemingly innocuous paragraph, one I would not expect of so worthy a tome as the Brittanica. And that is that the "standard chronology" is a series of conjectures BASED on the life of the Stratford man.
The chronology of Shakespeare's works is of course based on considerably more than that. The widely accepted chronology derives from a careful examination of both the text of the plays themselves as well as their publication and performance histories, and contemporary references to them. Usually that is sufficient to establish a date no later than which the play must have been written, and is usually sufficient to date it within a span of a few years.
Some of the topical references are much more of a problem for the Oxfordian camp than you admit, JB. Macbeth, as a rumination on treachery and royal legitimacy in Scotland, for example, largely only makes sense in the context of the first few years of the reign of James I, climaxing in the notorious Gunpowder Plot of 1605, two years after the death of Oxford. None of that stuff is an "add-on" but rather constitutes the entire play. Likewise, The Tempest, includes nearly verbatim quotations of a popular account of a shipwreck by William Strachey published in 1609, again several years after Oxford's death. Moreover, that play and some of the other later works in Shakespeare's corpus show evidence of having been written specifically for the environment of a more intimate theatrical setting than was typical in London theater, such as Blackfriars, which had been opened by Shakespeare's theater company in 1608, once more well after the death of Oxford. And of course, there is the issue of The Two Noble Kinsmen, a play attributed in print to Shakespeare and the young playwright John Fletcher, which does indeed appear to have been a work in which two authors traded off scenes and collaborated throughout. Fletcher only burst on the scene as an author several years after Oxford's death, so to collaborate intimately with him, the good earl presumably would have had to rise, mouldering, from his crypt.
All of those features are woven into the very warp and woof of the plays, and go far beyond a "rubik's cube" reference to give an old play some topical zing. If those plays were added to, they had to have been substantially re-written well after Oxford's death. So, yes, that is in fact a "major difficulty" for the Oxford thesis.
I'm not sure why it counts as "prejudice" for Britannica to note some of the weaknesses in the Oxfordian thesis. As an encyclopedia, the job description is to describe topics of interest as objectively and succinctly as possible, not to wade into an ongoing debate with elbows flailing. This is even more the case when the side of the debate in question is a fringe theory which has failed to garner much in the way of support from historians and literary scholars.
JB: Ah, well. As most of you can guess, I have no plans to stop flogging this particular horse.
I always enjoy reading your insights on the matter, even if I rarely agree with them.
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Doug Campbell Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 29 March 2008 Location: United States Posts: 367
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Posted: 28 July 2012 at 1:51pm | IP Logged | 8
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For those interested, JB's book recommendations only give you one side of the discussion. In addition to any of the standard biographies of Shakespeare (Samuel Schoenbaum's is probably the best regarded), you might look at the following works which directly rebut the arguments of Oxfordians and other anti-Shakespeareans:
James Shapiro, Contested Will: Who Wrote Shakespeare?
Scott McCrea, The Case for Shakespeare: The End of the Authorship Question.
Irvin L. Matus, Shakespeare, In Fact.
And for those interested in material from a Shakespearean perspective online, there is of course: http://shakespeareauthorship.com/
Make sure to examine both sides!
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Richard White Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 28 August 2009 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 1058
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Posted: 28 July 2012 at 4:34pm | IP Logged | 9
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Having read 'Becoming Shakespeare' it's pretty much tradition for people to add whatever the hell suits them to the bard.
On Tuesday, my girlfriend and I are off for a week in Stratford, including tickets for The Tempest at the RSC.
Edited by Richard White on 28 July 2012 at 4:35pm
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Richard White Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 28 August 2009 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 1058
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Posted: 28 July 2012 at 4:47pm | IP Logged | 10
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Just wanted to add my 2 cents by the way....Stratford Will as Shakespeare makes no sense to me.
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Darren Taylor Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 April 2004 Location: Scotland Posts: 6025
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Posted: 28 July 2012 at 6:13pm | IP Logged | 11
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I watched an episode of Time Team that had the archaeologists brushing against this provocative historical mystery.
http://www.channel4.com/programmes/time-team/episode-guide/s eries-19/episode-10
-D
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133560
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Posted: 28 July 2012 at 6:22pm | IP Logged | 12
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Some of the topical references are much more of a problem for the Oxfordian camp than you admit, JB. Macbeth, as a rumination on treachery and royal legitimacy in Scotland, for example, largely only makes sense in the context of the first few years of the reign of James I, climaxing in the notorious Gunpowder Plot of 1605, two years after the death of Oxford.•• So Gilbert & Sullivan DIDN'T write THE MIKADO! Fascinating!
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