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Topic: The Hulk vs Jaws (or Incredible Shark-Jumping) (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Eric Ladd
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Posted: 04 July 2012 at 6:43pm | IP Logged | 1  

There was no staff present when the Black Widow originally went to bring Banner in. There was no indication that Banner was in control of the Hulk ever prior to the battle at the end of the Avengers movie. Loki's staff agitated everyone, but nothing that brought anyone to blows. Once Banner turned into the Hulk on the helicarrier he was out to kill.
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Robert White
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Posted: 04 July 2012 at 7:35pm | IP Logged | 2  

The Hulk does seem paradoxical, doesn't he? On one hand he would make the Mt. Everest of Superheroes with Superman, Batman and Spider-Man...yet there has always been a sect of creators and fans that think he's "one-note." The irony for me is that the classic Hulk of the 70's was probably the most original superhero leading character. In a world filled with scientists that look lie fashion models and angsty teens, the Hulk was a breath of fresh air. The Hulk has always been my favorite Marvel character and the one most interesting to me. The classic Hulk was remarkably flexible--he could be touching, humorous, frightening, etc.

It just boils down to liking variety. Fans that don't have long been a bane to the genre from the way I see it. 
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Brian Hague
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Posted: 04 July 2012 at 8:17pm | IP Logged | 3  

My read on the scenes in the Avengers film:

Banner is not in control of the Hulk at any point in the film. That Hulk we see at the end cooperating with the Avengers is fully the Hulk, not Banner. The Hulk is fueled by rage and has caused untold amounts of damage in the past, so Banner naturally fears the change and spends his every waking moment trying to rid himself and the world of the Hulk. For very good reasons, he does not trust the Hulk, hence his unwillingness to change at the beginning of the film in the scene with the Widow.

Later, when the Helicarrier is under attack and Banner is pinned under the wreckage, his pain is what triggers the change. Whether the fact that the Widow is there and had lied to him earlier in the film played a part in his anger I don't know, but the Hulk clearly holds her responsible for the crushing agony he felt that brought about the change. He's beyond angry. He's out of control, and the best the Widow can do is run for her life. The thing is, even under these circumstances, he still does not kill.

So he falls from the Helicarrier and hits as sparsely populated an area as he can, and when Banner awakens later, there's a man there who describes the Hulk's efforts to land as safely as possible and not hurt anyone. This is something of a revelation to Banner, and gives him something to consider that he's never thought of before. Stark throughout the film has been saying pretty much the same thing to him. The Hulk is in some way derived from Banner, and Banner is a capable, compassionate individual. Despite the damage the Hulk has caused in the past, what would happen if Banner... trusted the Hulk?

Banner rides back to the scene of the battle and does something we in the audience didn't know he could do up until that point. Since the change is triggered by anger, and, as Banner tells us, he is always angry, the Hulk is and always has been just a few seconds away from coming into existence. We knew Banner had to fight to keep control of his emotions... What we didn't know was just how close to losing that battle he was every single second of every single day. He's gained a tremendous amount of self-control in the time he's been the Hulk, and in this scene, he lets that self-control go, and just like that, there's the Hulk. Not a Banner-driven Hulk. Just the Hulk.

He wasn't brought in being through agonizing injury this time or fear or some conflict Banner couldn't hope to escape. He's there because he's angry, yes, but no more angry than Banner is most of the time. The Hulk goes on to prove that in his own furious, capricious, battle-happy way, he can in fact be trusted to be let out if the situation calls for it.

Banner isn't controlling the Hulk, but his innate character is essentially the same as the Hulk's, and the Hulk therefore "does the right thing." And beats the hell out of a couple of Asgardians along the way, because, well, he doesn't like them. And they had it coming. No, really, they did.

Tony was right in suggesting to Banner that the Hulk might be a monster, but he was a monster born within a good man, and that maybe there is some ground on which we can make a kind of peace with our inner demons...

Just my take on it, but I believe the film's got my back on this... :-)

 

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Marc M. Woolman
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Posted: 04 July 2012 at 10:09pm | IP Logged | 4  

I found the Avengers film had a simple take on the Hulk. When Bruce Banner changes willingly, the Hulk's not in full-on Rampage uncontrollably mode, when Banner is forced to change against his will then you get the very out-of-control Hulk.

This also ties in with the end of the Incredible Hulk movie starring Ed Norton.

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Robert White
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Posted: 05 July 2012 at 12:55am | IP Logged | 5  

I didn't mind the movie logic because, lets face it, the logic regarding the transformation in the comics, even during the classic period, was nebulous at best. The Hulk in some issues would revert to Banner when "calm" but in other instances would stay the Hulk for days, even falling asleep and waking up while not reverting to Banner. Obviously this was creative license by the author so he could tell the story, but it's clear that the rules were never meant to be set in stone. Much like the Hulk's tempestuous nature, his transformations are equally random and chaotic.
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Joel Tesch
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Posted: 05 July 2012 at 5:31am | IP Logged | 6  

I found the Avengers film had a simple take on the Hulk. When Bruce Banner changes willingly, the Hulk's not in full-on Rampage uncontrollably mode, when Banner is forced to change against his will then you get the very out-of-control Hulk.

This also ties in with the end of the Incredible Hulk movie starring Ed Norton.
 
Exactly, Marc. That was my take on it. In fact, it kind of has to be that way given the end of the Incredible Hulk.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 05 July 2012 at 6:28am | IP Logged | 7  

I found the Avengers film had a simple take on the Hulk. When Bruce Banner changes willingly, the Hulk's not in full-on Rampage uncontrollably mode, when Banner is forced to change against his will then you get the very out-of-control Hulk.

This also ties in with the end of the Incredible Hulk movie starring Ed Norton.

++

Exactly, Marc. That was my take on it. In fact, it kind of has to be that way given the end of the Incredible Hulk.

••

You build all that from one quick close-up of his "Hulk eyes"? Talk about bringing stuff into the theater that's not in the movie!

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John Byrne
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Posted: 05 July 2012 at 6:29am | IP Logged | 8  

Various fans and reviewers have stated that the Hulk worked well in the context of the AVENGERS movie, but "can't hold up a movie on his own".

••

Sounds like a typical ennui-engorged fanboy phrase. "Oh! Look have CLEVER I am! See how I can DECONSTRUCT this character!"

feh

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Eric Ladd
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Posted: 05 July 2012 at 8:33am | IP Logged | 9  

I'm with the Chief on this. You are reading a lot into this because if Banner has the ability to turn into the Hulk to avoid aimless destruction, he would just do it as a precaution. I don't see anything in the film that explains the difference in the two Hulks we saw.

For me, some of the best Hulk stories are the ones where the reader feels sorry for the Hulk and/or Banner because of the situation. Being the Hulk should read like a curse and garner sympathy, not envy.
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Michael Todd
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Posted: 05 July 2012 at 8:42am | IP Logged | 10  

I miss the fun of the child like Hulk.

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John Byrne
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Posted: 05 July 2012 at 9:03am | IP Logged | 11  

Well.... that scene maybe goes a bit TOO far!
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Adam Hutchinson
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Posted: 05 July 2012 at 9:16am | IP Logged | 12  


 QUOTE:
I don't see anything in the film that explains the difference in the two Hulks we saw.


Other than being SHOWN through the Hulk's actions that there is a difference, being told by the security guard that the Hulk purposely landed where he did to avoid hurting anyone, and the heavy implication that something is up with Loki's staff in the lab scene and the lead-up to the Hulk's rampage.
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