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Topic: The Hulk vs Jaws (or Incredible Shark-Jumping) (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Joe Hollon
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Posted: 02 July 2012 at 6:53pm | IP Logged | 1  

::::SPOILER ALERT FOR 1980s HULK COMICS::::

I started reading THE INCREDIBLE HULK from the beginning back in 2008.  Over the last four years I've read up to issue 290, about 22 years of Hulk stories.  Over this time I've consistently been impressed with the quality of stories.  Each issue giving me what I want:  fast action, interesting characters and great art.  For a 22 year stretch I've barely, if ever, encountered a dud issue.  Now the reason for this post, I think I discovered where the Hulk, at least as I've known and loved the character, "jumped the shark." 

Beginning around issue 270 (or so) there begins a storyline in which Banner gains complete control of the Hulk. This goes on for several issues with hints that the loss of his "savage nature" has weakened the Hulk, foreshadowing a time where he will have to give up his control of the Hulk to win a battle and we would be back to the status quo.  Only....it doesn't happen.  I've read nearly two years worth of comics now with Banner in complete control.  It's been a long time since I read the comics I'm approaching but I think he does eventually return to the status quo....but only very temporarily!  After this the Hulk begins a roller coaster ride of dramatic changes.  Soon it's the Grey Hulk.  "Mr. Fixit."  Back to the green Hulk.  An intelligent green Hulk again (for a long time in the 90s if I recall).  I lost track but I know since then there have been stretches where Banner was no longer the Hulk at all (perhaps currently?).  There's a red Hulk.  There was a man-eating Hulk.  For some reason Hulk has been a character that creators have insisted on steering away from the status quo.  When's the last time Bruce Banner turned into a savage, child-like green monster when he became angry?  That's what people recognize as the Hulk but has that character even existed in the last 25 years?
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Kip Lewis
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Posted: 02 July 2012 at 7:56pm | IP Logged | 2  

He pops up every so often along with the other versions.

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Brian Hague
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Posted: 02 July 2012 at 9:15pm | IP Logged | 3  

I believe very few creators these days have any wish to be associated with what I've heard refered to as "the Len Wein 'Moron' Hulk," especially now that there are sooooo many other options available to them.

The Hulk offers so much opportunity for naked savagery, endless violence, "berserker rages," and hey, punching out know-it-all characters you've always secretly hated, like that overgrown swaddling infant, the Watcher! Sooo much else you can do: MPD stories, lukemia and cancer metaphors, "the descent of man," the questionable morality of being a daily 9/11 attack on the lives of everyone around you...

Reader sympathy used to lie with both characters, Banner and the Hulk. For awhile, it was just Banner. Of late, sympathy is last thing any creator wants his stories to generate. What they're going for is the "badass" effect. Readers, they feel, don't want to feel bad for the Hulk. They especially don't want to feel anything for the dweeb he unfortunately changes back into occasionally. They want the Hulk to Rip It Up and Tear It Down... Whatever "it" may be. Doesn't matter. Also, the more Hulks, the more Ripping Up gets done... Three Hulks, Three times the Ripping Up. Five Hulks? Five times the Ripping Up. Seven Hulks? Seven times... Well, you get the idea. Maybe at some point the calculation goes geometric... At that point, Hot Damn! So why not have every... single... character who's ever been in the book become a Hulk? There's no reason not to!!!

Currently I'm told the set-up is that we should all be so lucky as to have the Hulk stick around since Banner is the calculating, murderous, oh-so-much-more-dangerously-badass of the two...

No one wants to go back to the status quo, because, well, it's so... Quo, y'know? Besides, the readers all know the original set-up. As the now famous quote goes, "If they don't already know this stuff, why are they reading it?"

 

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Brian Hague
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Posted: 02 July 2012 at 9:36pm | IP Logged | 4  

By the way, regarding that extended storyline, I was onboard for most of that one. It did help set the tone for much of what happened to the industry later by unfortunately adhering to what I've come to call "Trial of the Flash Syndrome."

Cary Bates had an idea for an extended storyline, but he was going to wrap it up and move on to the next story soon. Then the book was cancelled, but wasn't scheduled to actually leave the stands for another year and a half. Bates apparently asked himself, why come up with another story at that point? Just keep writing this one...

So he did. End... Less... Ly... The Trial of the Flash would... not... stop... It was a mercy when that awful book ended. With the Hulk, the Banner-As-Hulk storyline just kept generating stories, so Mantlo kept going with it. Why change? Besides, with issue 300 coming up in few issues, why not wait 'til then? Mantlo did come up with another direction in which to go, and I thought it was a valid one, but, yes, once the "Banner-In-Control" bell was rung, there was no unringing it. Later writers began to experiment with further and further changes to the generally understood formula to the point where the book occasionally became unrecognizable.

I still like Mantlo's "Banner-In-Control" period. As Troy pointed out on an episode of Community, there used to be a show called "Happy Days" and there was an episode where a guy really did jump over a shark, and you know what? It was the best one!

 

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Marc M. Woolman
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Posted: 02 July 2012 at 11:03pm | IP Logged | 5  

The "child-like/savage' Hulk pops up all the time. Too much for my liking actually. When Jeph Loeb launched a second Hulk book the green Hulk he portrayed tended to be exactly that one. (savage/child-like/moron)

I like a savage, reasonably intelligent Hulk. Currently, the Hulk title has exactly that, a savage, reasonably intelligent hulk who has no choice but to try to be the hero because the Bruce Banner he reverts back into is completely insane and evil. 
The entire story-arc has been set-up like this is temporary, and that Bruce Banner could be completely exonerated, thus not harming the character, (because Dr. Doom did the Hulk a "favour" and separated the 2 of them out of the goodness of his heart, as Dr. Doom is known to due;)  and it has been a hoot to read and see the Hulk having to live the life Bruce Banner always has, i.e. being afraid what might happen when he transforms into his alter-ego.

Prior to this, Greg Pak's Hulk run really set the gold-standard for both characters. Pak wrote a Bruce Banner who is resourceful and not somebody you'd want to mess with because he is one of the smartest guys in the Marvel U. and his Hulk was angry, borderline out-of-control, but still a hero. Pak also firmly established that the Hulk does not kill and his rampages do not kill because the part of him that is Bruce Banner won't allow it. (similar to when JB's 2d Hulk run had Tyrannus in remote-control of the Hulk but the moment Tyrannus tried to kill somebody using the Hulk, Banner stopped it)



Edited by Marc M. Woolman on 03 July 2012 at 2:26pm
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Stephen Churay
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Posted: 03 July 2012 at 1:25am | IP Logged | 6  

...So why not have every... single... character who's ever been in the
book become a Hulk? There's no reason not to!!!

====
Well, they pretty much have. Currently, there's:
Hulk=Bruce Banner
She-Hulk=Jennifer Walters
Doctor Leonard Samson=Doc Samson
Red Hulk=Thunderbolt Ross
Red She-Hulk=Betty Ross
A-Bomb (the blue good guy Abomination)=Rick Jones

Now the whole regular cast is Gamma affected.
But Wait! There's More!
We also have:
Skaar=He's the Hulk's son that he had with an alien lady, while off
             planet.
"Savage"She-Hulk=Thundra

BTW Brian, I really like your whole assessment.

Joe, good luck with your reading.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 03 July 2012 at 4:06am | IP Logged | 7  

When Roger Stern started writing the Hulk's book, he noted that Len had often said the Hulk was Marvel's Goofy. But Roger said the Hulk was Marvel's Donald Duck.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 03 July 2012 at 4:08am | IP Logged | 8  

Currently, there's:
Hulk=Bruce Banner
She-Hulk=Jennifer Walters
Doctor Leonard Samson=Doc Samson
Red Hulk=Thunderbolt Ross
Red She-Hulk=Betty Ross
A-Bomb (the blue good guy Abomination)=Rick Jones

Now the whole regular cast is Gamma affected.
But Wait! There's More!
We also have:
Skaar=He's the Hulk's son that he had with an alien lady, while off planet.
"Savage"She-Hulk=Thundra

**

And to think... there was a time when Marvel used to mock DC for the relentless de-uniquing of their characters!

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Joe Hollon
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Posted: 03 July 2012 at 5:05am | IP Logged | 9  

Thank you for the insightful responses so far (especially Brian). 

I wasn't aware of a lot of that crap they've done with Hulk and his supporting cast recently.  That's the ultimate end of the snowball I'm seeing built in these early 80s comics I'm reading.  It's depressing to see it happening and knowing it's not going to get better.

I know one of the arguments people bring up about the Hulk is that he's a character who has "always changed".  Well, I would argue that for a full 20 year period (early 60s to early 80s) there was a very well-established model of who the Hulk was.  Slight changes might have occurred over time and major changes might have occurred temporarily, but he always soon returned to what was recognized as the Hulk.  I really miss him.  One of my top three favorite superhero characters (along with Spider-Man and Superman...who also don't exist anymore...).
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Eric Ladd
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Posted: 03 July 2012 at 5:32am | IP Logged | 10  

Joe, I would think that people citing the Hulk "always changed" couldn't see that is was only the illusion of change. As you noted, in 20 years of stories the character deviated slightly here and there, but always returned to what was established. Thanks for the post. Now I know where to have my kids stop reading the book. =)
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Joe Hollon
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Posted: 03 July 2012 at 5:35am | IP Logged | 11  

Now I know where to have my kids stop reading the book.

**********

I plan to read as far into the 300s as I can stand it.  I have some fond memories of many of those issues but we'll see how they hold up. 
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Stephen Churay
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Posted: 03 July 2012 at 8:03am | IP Logged | 12  

I plan to read as far into the 300s as I can stand it.  I have some fond
memories of many of those issues but we'll see how they hold up. 

====
Careful Joe. It really starts to go down hill when JB leaves.
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