QUOTE: Larry, honestly, I don't mean to poke the bear! The basic central core of my statement was that I don't see the Scott/Emma thing as a shark jump. I acknowledge that many others do, and that's perfectly fine. I can see why, but for me, Scott was "ruined" long before then. Granted, the thing with Emma "ruins" him in an entirely new way, but that's not much of a qualifier with me. I haven't enjoyed much of anything done with the character since issue #201, and I wasn't having a lot of fun with him previous to that. Hence my statement that he hasn't been written well in decades. What was up the whole "father of Cable" thing? And the "Redd and Slym" post-apocalyptic future? Mr. Sinister? Age of Apocalypse? What "good" Scott stories have I missed since #201?

Good Scott stories? Did you read his last storyarc in X FACTOR?  Did you read  the story with Redd and Slym since you referenced those names?  Did you ever read the story with Cable, his bachelor party issue?  I think Scott was portrayed excellently in all of them.  In line with established decades of characterization.  I liked the Cyclops in those stories.  I respected him, I admired him.  That is the Cyclops I want to read.

Hey, if the character was ruined for you long ago, that is certainly your right.  I know the feeling because it's how I feel now.  Without retconning it, nothing they do with the character at this point would win me back. Thing is, I freely acknowledge that.  I am not going to act like I was being objective after the jumping the shark moment.  Perhaps there is stuff going on in the books right now, aspects where he is completely in character, but it no longer matters to me because they went so far askew in what I felt were essential elements.

Most of this is opinion.  I try to spray in IMOs along the way to convey that.  My earlier it's simply not true was an opinion.  One I feel very strongly about.  Still, though, just an opinion.  The jumping the shark line is different depending on your view.

QUOTE: The premise of X-Factor, playing into the hatred of mutants by setting up a company that not only agrees that mutants are bad news, but will actually come to your house and eliminate them for you! Like Orkin for people! Good "cover," guys... It's like using race hatred as a sort of faux Cerebro... That's more of a shark jump for the character to me than him dating another telepath living in the mansion, which, whatever her murderous, evil, Faye-Dunaway-looking past may have entailed was all Emma was by the time she and Scott started knocking boots.

It was an ill conceived idea that was dropped about 15 issues into the series.  The original 5 were there for about 70.  And it's not like anti mutant hysteria had gotten worse.  Mutants were being registered now.

X Factor did not precipitate hatred against mutants, it was a response to increasing hysteria.  What was their goal?  Get to these young mutants first, take them in, train them in the use of their powers and help them eventually indoctrinate themselves into society.  And you think this is more of a jumping the shark moment than Scott Summers, after 40 years, deciding that he and Jean were some overblown teenage crush?

As before, to each his own.  I do want to clarify that I'm not for the original premise of the X Factor team.  While their end goal is in line with Xavier's going about it that way was not the right approach.  It didn't light the flames of mutant prejudice but it did fan them. 

QUOTE: In Marvel terms, she was just another "reformed villainess" by that point. When I first started reading Iron Man, he was making out with Madame Masque in the back of a robot car, and I was aghast. Seriously, guys, no one's even driving that thing?? Madame Masque wasn't a reformed villain at that point either. She was still the head of a Mafia crime family! Excuse me, "Maggia" (*koff!*) Spider-Man dated the Black Cat. Captain America, shining, stainless Captain America dated Diamondback. Yes, neither of those two were murderesses, but hey, dating the bad guy is just something Marvel Comics characters do. See also: Bruce and Selina.

I'm not disputing that Emma was eventually reformed.  My issue was your timing.  Your post read, to me, as if you were crediting Claremont. It was Lobdell, and it had been 7 years.  Nowhere have I complained that Morrison used Emma because she was a villain and it was somehow out of character.

QUOTE: You may take special exception to the use of Emma in this sort of set-up, Larry, and please, feel free to do so. I don't see it as egregious a crime against the character of Scott as you do. Scott falls for telepaths, be they warm and effusive or cold and brittle. (Shrugs) I see it as a Scott thing. You may dislike Morrison as much as you care to for having brought this about. I didn't like anything he did in his run either. The aesthetic hipster crimes of Morrison and Quitely alone are appalling enough. Wolverine the homosexual prostitute was a pretty amazing visual to try to get past, as was the realization that those costume elements on Emma were supposed to be a reverse "X" effect. And we thought wrapping the Canadian flag around Heather created a problem in reading her chosen symbology... Someone should tell Emma (and Quitely) that "X's" aren't all, well, bulgy like that...

Let's see.  His history prior to Morrison.  Was Lee a telepath?  Was Maddie when he met her?  Who, besides Jean?  I suppose you could argue Psylocke but that never went anywhere, and it was implied she was screwing with his head.  I don't see that as indicative of "Scott always falls for telepaths".

BTW, I didn't hate every aspect of the Morrison run.  I thought he handled Wolverine well.  My 2 favorite X Men?  No.  2 of the others I'm most fond of(Beast and Xavier)? No.  

QUOTE: So, Larry, I apologize for flippantly dismissing what are greater concerns to you than they are to me. For me, sympathy for the villains has long been an accepted undercurrent in X-Men history. No, Wanda and Pietro weren't murderers and attempted murderers, but Magneto and Rogue were. Rogue was completely off her rocker insane in her attempts to kill Alison Blaire. (Am I the only one who read every issue of Dazzler? I may be... And I could understand that...) Emma's story, including the murder of her sister after her sister had tried to kill a number of her students with a bomb, doesn't seem "worse" to me than a great many other X-Men backstories. She's been a central character in at least two major series before joining the X-Men team itself. Marvel certainly seemed to accept her as a lead and a "heroine." I'm not that bent out of shape that Scott has as well, but who knows, maybe I'm just jaded and beaten down by the soap operatic nonsense coursing at all times through the X-titles.

No need to apologize on my account.  You brought up things I disagreed with and I replied.  While it is a sore spot, you certainly didn't force me to participate in the thread. I could have said nothing.  But once I did engage I'm not offended by your take.  I just don't agree with it.

Absolutely, yes, murderers have been brought into the team as well.  My last post was in reply to you bringing up Pietro and Wanda.  Emma was not them, she was far more extreme.  And while. I would not have thought of her as the MOST difficult character to redeem, that does not change my opinion that she was evil and pretty sadistic when first introduced. But I could buy her reforming before someone like Sabretooth or the Red Skull.  Just saying she was not analogous to the other 2 or someone like Hawkeye or Banshee.

As I said, Emma is not the issue for me.  I didn't drop the X books over what they did to Emma,  Bring her on the team as a wildcard, okay.  Nothing particularly new with that concept.  Shoehorning her into Jean Grey's place with the X Men?  She's got more of a place in the X Men than Jean Grey?  Something is seriously wrong with the X Men at that point.  As I described it for many years, it's bizarro X Men.  IMO, of course.

Bizarro X-Men would sound about right to me, except that I actually like the Bizarros...

As I said, Larry, my run-ins with the X-Men were few and far between after the battle between Scott and Storm. I do recall reading through one of the Redd and Slym stories and not being compelled enough to follow the series.

Lobdell was the key figure in Emma's turnaround, I agree, but I believe he was taking his cue from elements Claremont included in his stories, particularly in the New Mutants. He would almost have to have since I haven't read any of the Lobdell stuff. No, that's not true... I did read a GN wherein Polaris spent an entire issue justifying her deadly attacks on humans and singing the praises of terrorism... She went on so much that the X-Men's rebuttal speech had to wait until the next issue. Seems to me I read an issue with Marrow in it as well... Hm. In any case, I certainly never followed his run, and know of no reason to ever pick it up.

I did go back and reread some history about Emma as a result of this thread and was surprised to find that her sister is the only person she's said to be guilty of killing, and that was in retaliation for the murder of a student and the attempted murder of others. I was certain Emma had been more "badass" at some point, up there with some of the other, more bloodthirsty X-villains. Of course, what usually defines an X-villain is how sadistic they are, not their body count. And Emma certainly did start off as plenty sadistic...

As for whether Sebastian Shaw has ever been made into a bad guy, JB, he did recently have his memory wiped by Emma and in the A vs. X mega-crossover rescued a group of mutant teens from custody. So, it may be the coming thing with him... Bizarro X-Men, indeed...

QUOTE: Cyclops forming a kill squad.

I'd like to know what Stan (The Man) Lee would think about this.

++

I'd like to know what Stan (The Man) Lee would think about this.

••

Stan professed no problem with the biological webbing in the Spider-Movies, so I don't think we could expect too much complaining from him.

He even said he liked what they did with the Rawhide Kid!

In nearly every interview I've read or listened to*, Stan is publically supportive of changes made to the Marvel characters.  I would imagine he is much more critical in private, but he is the very epitome of class.  I suspect Stan will go down in history as the face of comic books.  This is not to slight the many other important creators. 

*Chris Hardwick has a really funny interview with Stan Lee on the nerdist podcast.  Stan is so hilariously quick witted.  I've never met him, but he is very entertaining to listen to.

Does that not qualify her as a badguy?

When I got back into comics a few years ago, I gave New X-Men a whirl. The first thing I asked my LCS owner was, "How is Emma Frost a member of the X-Men?". Considering that Jean was on the team, why two telepaths? Mike (the owner), who will give you a straight answer everytime said "Because Grant Morrison thinks she's hot". Looking at how he said Cyclops was his favorite character, looking at her ridiculous costume that Frank Quitely designed, and given the mentality of the Quesada/Jemas regime, I believe him.