The thing about Claremont's statements that I take away from it was that the 90's were an era of extremes. Things always had to be edgier, more frenetic, more dangerous... More worthy of a shiny, laser-enhanced chromium cover... This was an era where the Punisher reigned supreme and the Ghost Rider routinely sent his opponents to Hell. Venom became insanely popular and got his own series. So serial-killer spinoffs had to be created to be worse than he was. And then the serial-killer symbiotes got their own series...

I don't doubt that in the middle of all this, Claremont did have plans to keep the X-Men edgy, in-your-face, and as far as possible, ahead of the creative pack as it had been throughout the 80's. How successful any of this would have been, and whether Claremont would have followed through or done some differently along the way because "that's what he felt like when he was writing it," we'll never know.

I sincerely doubt he would have had the political clout at the time to actually kill Wolverine for any length of time since he wasn't writing Wolverine's book at the time, and Marvel was always looking to do another Wolvie-crossover mini-series at any given moment. That intention right there by itself may have been enough to convince Marvel Editorial that maybe it was time to let someone else drive the bus for awhile...

Brandon, you were right in stating that people do tend to forget Emma's role in the Generation X comic. I had forgotten about it completely. Thanks for the reminder. Now I can even picture Finola Hughes in that bad wig playing the part... I'm not sure you've actually done me a favor here, Brandon... :-)

Benjamin, you're right as well about there being fewer Claremont villains-come-X-Men than I suggested, but the line between good guy and bad guy was constantly shifting under Claremont's pen. Storm went from idealistic plant-hugger to a hard-edged leather-clad gang leader who was willing to stab her opponent through the heart. Meanwhile the Juggernaut became less of a standard villain and more of a bar brawler willin' t' teach a lil' sumpthin' to the wet-behind-the-ears tin man... Kitty became a ninja...

Good guys did bad things. Bad guys did good things. You know, I never really thought about it before, but Steve Ditko never crossed paths with the X-Men outside of a few cameo appearances in Rom, did he...? Hm. I would really like to read a Ditko mutant comic...

I should probably leave well enough alone.  Pavlov's dog, though. What has been done with Cyclops is not in line with the 15-20 years before Morrison started.  It's just not no matter how many times I see someone state that it was.

QUOTE: The White Queen romance seems to me to be just another iteration of a Claremont theme done again and again in the book, and that's the attempted reformation of villains by having them join the team. The X-Men's history of this goes back to making Wanda and Pietro sympathetic characters readers wanted to switch sides. Later, Banshee and Changeling both joined the team. As for Claremont's use of the theme, once it worked with Rogue, he seemed willing to take any villain into the mansion and try to "spin" them into a conflicted anti-hero/ "noble on levels you couldn't possibly comprehend" warrior. The villain usually faces potential rejection and a lot of suspicion ("Aren't you going to invite her in?" "If it were up to me, 'Roro, I'd cut out her heart.") before ultimately proving themselves to their team-mates. Once their worth is demonstrated they either stick with the team or strike out on their own, their own particular set of moral and ethical issues proving incompatible with Xavier's "goody-goody" Dream..

You think Emma compares to characters like Pietro, Wanda and Banshee?  Characters who were conflicted from the start. Emma was EVIL.

QUOTE: The White Queen's romance with Mr. X-Men himself simply allowed for Morrison to write those standard X-Men conflicts on another level as well. While I don't approve of the whole "Jean would have wanted it this way, Please, by all means, use her gravesite as a motel bed..." approach to the storyline, I don't see it as the "jump the shark" moment many others do, given Scott's previous infatuation, marraige, and abandonment of Madelyne Pryor/ The Goblin Queen. Scott's been poorly written for decades now. The White Queen insanity is at least interesting from a lurid, tabloid-y perspective...

Cyclops was not written like this for decades.  Several years of being badly mishandled is not decades.  The 90s sure as hell didn't handle him like that.  While I've maintained consistent in my stance that, if anything, the Maddie debacle showed how out of character adultery is since he wouldn't cheat with Jean Grey, I'll acknowledge that we are in the neighborhod at least.  Shows a precedent for being a crappy husband

Still doesn't show that he'd ever prefer Emma Frost to Jean Grey.  Where is that in any way shape or form consistent with any previous interpretation of the character?  

So, outside of that utterly nauseating last page of NXM 154 it's interesting in a tabloid sort of way?  To each his own.  And that is without even getting into the kill squads or his never before seen separatist views.

Jumoed the fucking shark?  He's catapulted it. In the last 10 years!!!

QUOTE: Besides, Claremont had been "softening" Emma for years prior by having her truly love and want the best for her Hellions and her school. Whatever she was at the time of her inception, Claremont had long since "complicated" her into being no worse than other villains who've joined the team, such as the at-one-time psychotically sadistic Rogue and the "I knew Anne Frank personally" Magneto...

Softened her a bit, yes.  Reformed her?  No way.  She was a recurring character in NEW MUTANTS and still basically treated her students like pawns.  Nor was Claremont the only one handling her.  How about the FIRESTAR mini?  I'd say evil bitch would be a good description of her character in that series.  Came out after Claremont started giving the character some more dimension.

QUOTE: Steve Ditko never crossed paths with the X-Men outside of a few cameo appearances in Rom, did he...? Hm. I would really like to read a Ditko mutant comic...

It would have been something wouldn't it?

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As I have said so many times before about "reformed" characters (like Sandman, Juggernaut, Magneto, Emma Frost, etc), sure, I will buy their "reformation", provide it manifests as them turning themselves over to the proper authorities and being sent to prison forever.

"Oops, my bad!" doesn't really excuse murder and torture, after all.

The story was penciled by Ditko and inked by then X-Inker Paul Reinman. Looking at the story just now, to refresh my memory, I can only conclude Steve did the barest of bare bones layouts, as there is almost nothing left of his style under Reinman's finishes.

Vinny, I didn't follow that run, but really, if any member of the Thunderbolts had an outstanding prison sentence, shouldn't they have gone back to jail as well? It's not as if murder is the only crime for which we jail people. It doesn't seem right to me that Clint and not the courts gets to make that call...

I've not seen the Daredevil movie, but from what's been described to me, his character arc is that at the beginning of the movie, he believes it's okay to cause the deaths of criminals, but at the end, he does not.

Right, so... He turns himself in at the end, right? Because he's a lawyer and respects the law? Respects the value of human life? No? What?

Michael, I am not familiar with that issue! Is that the Angel vs. Iron Man story? I'll look into that!

Larry, honestly, I don't mean to poke the bear! The basic central core of my statement was that I don't see the Scott/Emma thing as a shark jump. I acknowledge that many others do, and that's perfectly fine. I can see why, but for me, Scott was "ruined" long before then. Granted, the thing with Emma "ruins" him in an entirely new way, but that's not much of a qualifier with me. I haven't enjoyed much of anything done with the character since issue #201, and I wasn't having a lot of fun with him previous to that. Hence my statement that he hasn't been written well in decades. What was up the whole "father of Cable" thing? And the "Redd and Slym" post-apocalyptic future? Mr. Sinister? Age of Apocalypse? What "good" Scott stories have I missed since #201?

The premise of X-Factor, playing into the hatred of mutants by setting up a company that not only agrees that mutants are bad news, but will actually come to your house and eliminate them for you! Like Orkin for people! Good "cover," guys... It's like using race hatred as a sort of faux Cerebro... That's more of a shark jump for the character to me than him dating another telepath living in the mansion, which, whatever her murderous, evil, Faye-Dunaway-looking past may have entailed was all Emma was by the time she and Scott started knocking boots.

In Marvel terms, she was just another "reformed villainess" by that point. When I first started reading Iron Man, he was making out with Madame Masque in the back of a robot car, and I was aghast. Seriously, guys, no one's even driving that thing?? Madame Masque wasn't a reformed villain at that point either. She was still the head of a Mafia crime family! Excuse me, "Maggia" (*koff!*) Spider-Man dated the Black Cat. Captain America, shining, stainless Captain America dated Diamondback. Yes, neither of those two were murderesses, but hey, dating the bad guy is just something Marvel Comics characters do. See also: Bruce and Selina.

You may take special exception to the use of Emma in this sort of set-up, Larry, and please, feel free to do so. I don't see it as egregious a crime against the character of Scott as you do. Scott falls for telepaths, be they warm and effusive or cold and brittle. (Shrugs) I see it as a Scott thing. You may dislike Morrison as much as you care to for having brought this about. I didn't like anything he did in his run either. The aesthetic hipster crimes of Morrison and Quitely alone are appalling enough. Wolverine the homosexual prostitute was a pretty amazing visual to try to get past, as was the realization that those costume elements on Emma were supposed to be a reverse "X" effect. And we thought wrapping the Canadian flag around Heather created a problem in reading her chosen symbology... Someone should tell Emma (and Quitely) that "X's" aren't all, well, bulgy like that...

So, Larry, I apologize for flippantly dismissing what are greater concerns to you than they are to me. For me, sympathy for the villains has long been an accepted undercurrent in X-Men history. No, Wanda and Pietro weren't murderers and attempted murderers, but Magneto and Rogue were. Rogue was completely off her rocker insane in her attempts to kill Alison Blaire. (Am I the only one who read every issue of Dazzler? I may be... And I could understand that...)

Emma's story, including the murder of her sister after her sister had tried to kill a number of her students with a bomb, doesn't seem "worse" to me than a great many other X-Men backstories. She's been a central character in at least two major series before joining the X-Men team itself. Marvel certainly seemed to accept her as a lead and a "heroine." I'm not that bent out of shape that Scott has as well, but who knows, maybe I'm just jaded and beaten down by the soap operatic nonsense coursing at all times through the X-titles.

••

Maybe this should be called "Darth Vader Syndrome". Oh, sure, he was co-conspirator in the murder of BILLIONS of people, but he's COOL looking, so here's some sappy backstory. Now you feel sorry for him, right?

As co-creator of Emma Frost, I certainly had no intention that there be anything "redeemable" about her. She was meant to be, to borrow a phrase from my Mother, a nasty piece of work. She was not meant to be a "bad girl", she was meant to be EVIL. A match for Sebastian Shaw.

Mind you, I haven't paid close attention lately. He's not a "good guy" now, is he?

^ The last I saw of Shaw was last year.  The X-Men held him prisoner on Asteriod M (they can call it Utopia all they want, but it is what it is).  Emma decided he was too dangerous to let live and wanted to kill him.  Kitty objected and tagged along on the snuff trip.  Fantomex (a "you're just lucky to be here" character if there ever was one) apparently forgot how Shaw's power works and caused his escape.  There's probably more, but either I didn't read it or I've since blocked it out.

There's a new Hellfire Club now, ran by kids, with a vendetta against Logan's school.  It's really uncomfortable telling you all this.