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Topic: X-Men...IN SPACE!!!!!!! (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
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John Byrne
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Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
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Posted: 03 July 2012 at 7:21am | IP Logged | 1  

Today's X-Men bother me because they're the perfect example (this started with the Morrison run) of a writer being able to tell HIS story using the X-Men instead of writing X-Men stories.

••

Yup.

I have said for years there are basically two schools of writers (with, obviously, some degree of overlap).

On the one hand, the writers who, when asked to take over CAPTAIN FONEBONE COMICS ask themselves "Can I tell good Captain Fonebone stories?"

And on the other, writers who, made the same offer, ask "Can I use Captain Fonebone to tell MY stories?"

As the ratio of Old Pros to Fans-Turned-Pro tipped more and more to the latter, we saw more and more of the second school -- to the pronounced detriment of the characters.

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Aaron Smith
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Posted: 03 July 2012 at 7:44am | IP Logged | 2  

On the topic of "jumping off points" for the X-Men, I also left at issue #201, with Storm besting Cyclops in one-on-one combat. Not only was Scott written as a conflicted jerk who was uncertain of his feelings, but he was consisently out-thought and out-manuevered by Chris' complete Mary Sue archetypal "Woman In Power" who's can not only defeat you, but lectures you on the credo of the warrior as she does so, with impeccable, perfectly-deserved arrogance. You are unworthy of the time she is giving you in kicking your lily-white ass. You idiot.

***

That issue, 201, was my first issue of X-MEN. Knowing nothing about the characters other than that story, I liked it and began to follow the series. BUT...when I finally did get to go back and read the issues before that, in CLASSIC X-MEN and whatever back issues I could find, I was blown away by how much better the stories were and how much more interesting Cyclops was when written properly. Cyclops became my favorite X-Man, those earlier issues, especially JB's run, became my favorite X-Men stories, and now, years later, I won't reread anything after issue 200 or so. So, the issue that was my original starting point for the X-Men had turned into my end point for the title.

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Shawn Kane
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Posted: 03 July 2012 at 8:03am | IP Logged | 3  

I get into debates about the X-Men once in a while with other customers at my LCS who enjoy what's going on in the titles and they'll tell me that I'm just using the old "comics were better when I was younger" line. But I know what I like. In online interviews, Joe Q has always said that progression is what the Marvel characters are about and that a vocal minority complains online. I can honestly say that I LOVE Marvel Comics but I'm a customer that is unhappy with 99% of the current product and I won't buy what I don't like. I don't like what they've done to the X-Men. I have a high threshold for trying something before I swear it off and current Marvel has passed that point with the X-Men and the Avengers.

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Peter Martin
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Posted: 03 July 2012 at 8:53am | IP Logged | 4  

It's almost as if at some point all the writers and editors at Marvel had a sweepstake for which character could be ruined the most. Some sterling work was done on Spider-Man, The Hulk, Iron Man to try and win the competition, but the guys who picked Scott Summers are still winning by a mile.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 03 July 2012 at 9:02am | IP Logged | 5  

Joe Q has always said that progression is what the Marvel characters are about and that a vocal minority complains online…

••

Quesada is not the one I would turn to, instinctively, for a quick history of Marvel Comics!

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John Byrne
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Posted: 03 July 2012 at 9:10am | IP Logged | 6  

What has happened to Scott/Cyclops is almost a measuring rod for the changing face of the industry. When I got in, it was still pretty early days for the influx of fans-turned-pro. There were a lot of us, to be sure, but our attitudes were mostly shaped by how much we loved the characters -- pretty much ALL the characters.

But even then, it was possible to see "camps" evolving and growing stronger in fandom. A kind of "My Dad (character) can beat your Dad (character}" attitude that kept getting ramped up and up, until we found ourselves confronted by people who would insist, with a perfectly straight face, that Batman could beat Galactus.

Around this time many (more and more all the time) started to think of Cyclops as a jerk. This was, as noted above, in part a response to the way Chris had started writing the character, and in part due to a general revolt against authority figures that was rippling thru fans (and young people in general). From this pool, then, came the "next generation" of fans-turned-pro. Where my "generation" had thought Cyclops was COOL and "Mr. X-Man", the newer writers thought otherwise -- and the character suffered for it.

Now, perhaps this is pure craziness on my part, but when I come to a character I don't like, I simply avoid using that character. (Notice the amazing paucity of Legion of Superheroes stories in my catalog!) But the "new" attitude seems to be that not liking a character is a cue to use that character as a punching bag.

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Neil Brauer
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Posted: 03 July 2012 at 9:22am | IP Logged | 7  

Chris' complete Mary Sue archetypal "Woman In Power"

....................

Amen brother.  Tedious is an understatement.

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Aaron Smith
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Posted: 03 July 2012 at 10:02am | IP Logged | 8  

Now, perhaps this is pure craziness on my part, but when I come to a character I don't like, I simply avoid using that character. (Notice the amazing paucity of Legion of Superheroes stories in my catalog!) But the "new" attitude seems to be that not liking a character is a cue to use that character as a punching bag.

***

If only the writer who turned the Lizard from a semi-sympathetic villain into an irredeemable monster had understood that! Instead of saying, "There were no good Lizard stories left to tell," he could have admitted that HE didn't have any Lizard stories to tell and picked a different Spider-Man villain to use. It's not as if Spider-Man is short on enemies!  

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John Byrne
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Grumpy Old Guy

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Posted: 03 July 2012 at 10:02am | IP Logged | 9  

Chris' complete Mary Sue archetypal "Woman In Power"

....................

Amen brother. Tedious is an understatement.

••

BLAME JO DUFFY!!

She actually cops to this one. In her fan days, she wrote a letter to Marvel complimenting Chris on how he wrote women, and in that instant The Claremont Woman was born!

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John Byrne
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Posted: 03 July 2012 at 10:04am | IP Logged | 10  

If only the writer who turned the Lizard from a semi-sympathetic villain into an irredeemable monster had understood that! Instead of saying, "There were no good Lizard stories left to tell," he could have admitted that HE didn't have any Lizard stories to tell and picked a different Spider-Man villain to use. It's not as if Spider-Man is short on enemies!

••

That's how Barry Allen died! The powers that were at DC declared -- and one said this to me, so this is not hearsay! -- that there were "no more stories to tell" with Barry's version of the Flash.

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Aaron Smith
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Posted: 03 July 2012 at 10:10am | IP Logged | 11  

I will never uderstand this mentality. They act as if it's the characters' fault! When I think of any of the classic superhero concepts, I'm in awe of how many stories can potentially be told using the ingredients left by Lee, Kirby, Ditko, Fox, Broome, etc etc etc, WITHOUT having to deviate from the status quos and essences of what made the characters great.

If a particular writer can't come up with an idea for a certain character, they need to step aside and let someone who can take over, not corrupt the character and make him unusable for future writers. That robs the fans of future enjoyment. I can't read new stories about any of my favorite comics characters anymore...and I certainly don't blame the characters for that!

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John Byrne
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Grumpy Old Guy

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Posted: 03 July 2012 at 10:17am | IP Logged | 12  

They act as if it's the characters' fault!

••

That's something that has also crept in from fandom. I have lost count of the number of times I have reminded people at cons and online that they should not blame the character(s) for being written badly!

+++

If a particular writer can't come up with an idea for a certain character, they need to step aside and let someone who can take over…

••

Another of the great mysteries! Some years back I watched as a writer whose work I didn't care for anyway was assigned to do a book using a character I had technically created. He told the editor he didn't like the character, and would only do the book if he could work some fairly massive changes.

Now, I seem to recall a time when not liking a character one was offered was a cue to say "No thanks, I'll find something else."

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