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Topic: Marvel Serendipity (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
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John Byrne
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Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
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Posted: 12 June 2012 at 5:12pm | IP Logged | 1  

This was something almost magical we used to talk about at Marvel back in the Seventies and Eighties and Nineties. A way that, even tho written by many people over many years, the "Marvel Universe" seemed to have coherent threads running thru it, as if everything really had been worked out from the beginning.

Consider:

• One day it occurred to me that Magneto might actually be the FATHER of Quicksilver and the Scarlet Witch. The moment I thought of this, all the pieces seemed to drop into place, as if that was what Stan and Jack had intended right from the start (it wasn't).

• When I was working on AVENGERS WEST COAST, and looking for ways to expand on the character of Simon Williams, I thought about the dynamics of his relationship with Wanda and the Vision -- the Vision having Simon's "brain patterns", and being in love with Wanda -- and suddenly all kinds of pieces just. . . dropped into place.

• Again on AWC, I had not liked it way back when, when it was "revealed" that the Vision was really the original Human Torch. That seemed like a bad case of tailcoating, to me. Taking an existing character's history and tacking it onto a more recent character. Not a big fan of that. Yet, what could I do? The deed was done. But one day I mentioned this to a friend, and he reminded me of a somewhat obscure story in which Toro had attended the original Torch's funeral -- and again there was a cascade of pieces falling into place.

• When I was doing HIDDEN YEARS, one of the things I knew I would eventually have to address (but didn't get the chance to, as it turned out) was those stories from the X-Men's days as a reprint title, when the characters turned up in other books, sometimes in civvies, but sometimes in their old school uniforms. What was going on there? I thought about it –– and the pieces dropped neatly into place, just like they'd been planned to fit that particular "puzzle" all along.

There were so many instances, and not just mine. Roger Stern had a whole list. I'll have to drop him an email and ask him to remind me of some.

My reason for mentioning this, tho, is basically this: back in those days, when we looked at Marvel's history, we found so many building blocks, just lying around, waiting to be slipped into place as part of the ever expanding edifice of the house that Jack and Stan (and Steve, and Don, and John, and Johnny, and. . . ) built. That was how we thought of ourselves -- as BUILDERS.

Today, it seems the approach is more akin to a wrecking ball.

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Paul Greer
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Posted: 12 June 2012 at 5:18pm | IP Logged | 2  

A wrecking ball is being kind. At times it feels that they just dropped a bomb.

 

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Bill Guerra
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Joined: 29 March 2012
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Posted: 12 June 2012 at 5:39pm | IP Logged | 3  

A nuke.

 

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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 12 June 2012 at 5:52pm | IP Logged | 4  

The building/wrecking ball analogy is quite apt. Whilst those with a "wrecking ball" mindset aren't blameless, I think I'd lay more of the blame at the feet of those who are SENIOR to such people, but let it happen, anyway.

As for those examples provided by Mr Byrne, well I hadn't quite thought of it in those terms, but it does all seem to fit together.

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Peter Martin
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Posted: 12 June 2012 at 6:54pm | IP Logged | 5  

The WonderMan/Wanda thing made cast-iron perfect sense. A completely logical progression.

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Jeffery Tolbird
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Joined: 06 November 2006
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Posted: 12 June 2012 at 7:45pm | IP Logged | 6  

JB, when you talk about these things it makes me sad and angry. Sad
because I feel you have been abused by companies you loved and angry for
the stories we will never know. My question is: Since you have vowed never
to return to the big two, is there a way to remedy the loss of your stories?
Would you accept a commission to write and draw a full story? If yes, how
many issues to complete the x men: the hidden years? this could then be
printed as a straight to trade companion piece of the tpb hidden years
(obviously this would require an agreement with Marvel)... or not... your
choice. this could be an editor free opportunity to shake out the ghosts
running in your head! My idea for paying for this is each page is an
individual commission. 22 patrons is not a stretch!
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Eric Ladd
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Posted: 12 June 2012 at 7:54pm | IP Logged | 7  

The fertile ground for such serendipity must be in the illusion of change. Since this illusion is action with now lasting effects there are ample elements available for future use.
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Mark Haslett
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Posted: 12 June 2012 at 8:14pm | IP Logged | 8  

I can't escape the feeling that "making a mark" is the sweet spot for creators working today.

In the current excitement about the Avengers movie, I keep running across posts on other boards by fans who lament that a CIVIL WAR movie will be hard to do since Marvel doesn't have Spider-Man and the Fantastic Four.

And people often sound excited that Captain America "set up" the Bucky/Winter Soldier story.

Talk about "Marvel Serendipity"-- there was Bucky, just lying dead all these years and not one creator had seen what an amazing opportunity he represented. Bring him back? Of course! It's so obvious! I mean, what, were Lee and Kirby, Steranko, Thomas, Buscema, Colan, Stern and Byrne, Zeck, et al asleep at the switch or what!?

Edited by Mark Haslett on 12 June 2012 at 8:17pm
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John Byrne
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Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
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Posted: 12 June 2012 at 8:28pm | IP Logged | 9  

My question is: Since you have vowed never to return to the big two, is there a way to remedy the loss of your stories?

••

I have, well, never said "never". But I cannot imagine the circumstances ever properly aligning to make a return possible. The industry and the companies are just too changed.

As I've said many time, I didn't leave Marvel. Marvel left me.

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John Byrne
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Grumpy Old Guy

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Posted: 12 June 2012 at 8:34pm | IP Logged | 10  

I can't escape the feeling that "making a mark" is the sweet spot for creators working today.

••

Roger Stern has often said that he and I, and others of our "generation" were lucky, because we got into comics when there was very little money, and the writers and artists were only a few years beyond anonymity. We came in, then, not to become famous or to make a lot of money, but to PLAY WITH THE TOYS. We wanted to work with those characters -- and, more important, AS WE FOUND THEM, not as we could MAKE them.

In more immediate, personal terms, when Chris and I were doing X-MEN (later UNCANNY X-MEN), we did not think we were creating "landmarks". We did not imagine we were generating stories that would still be mined for idea thirty and forty years later. We just set out to do the best damn X-Men stories we could think of. (Unconsciously, we even mirrored the Roy Thomas/Neal Adams X-MEN, which happened to BE the best damn X-Men stories we could think of!)

We "made a mark" -- but it was almost accidental!

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Jeffery Tolbird
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Posted: 12 June 2012 at 8:45pm | IP Logged | 11  

So if Disney (i.e.,Marvel) came to you and asked you to finish what you
started with x-men hidden years OR anything and you could pick an editor
and etc, you would say yes? If Neal Adams can make wolverine the first x-
men then it does not matter what your stories do to current timelines. It
could be like GENERATIONS for marvel! what if they wanted to do a cross
over...NEXT MEN VS X-MEN?!!!! the mind boggles! say the word JB and
#OCCUPYMARVEL when commence!! lol




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John Byrne
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Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132645
Posted: 12 June 2012 at 8:50pm | IP Logged | 12  

So if Disney (i.e.,Marvel) came to you and asked you to finish what you started with x-men hidden years OR anything and you could pick an editor and etc, you would say yes?

••

That's pretty much exactly NOT what I just said.

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