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Lars Johansson
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Posted: 01 June 2012 at 1:28am | IP Logged | 1  

And smart Alec took off his helmet and underneith to everybody's surprise  they saw the gentleman Nathan Greno.
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Francesco Vanagolli
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Posted: 01 June 2012 at 3:53am | IP Logged | 2  

John Byrne:

 QUOTE:
Therein you encapsulate what is surely the single biggest problem with too many fans these days -- they have no memory of "being a kid".


Which I call "the Norrin Radd syndrome"!

Anyway, I'm always amazed by how anal retentive certain fans can be. Months ago I found a guy in a forum who wanted to re-read everything Marvel produced since FF #1 trying to give an "explanation" to the presence of real world personalities and events.

ANAL.
RETENTIVE.




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John Byrne
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Posted: 01 June 2012 at 4:44am | IP Logged | 3  

I'd suggest, if the guy really did that, he perform a more valuable service and take note of the actual elapsed time seen on camera in all those stories. I'm sure it would turn out to be a lot less than "seven years", and having it annotated might finally silence the "real time" wonks!
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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 01 June 2012 at 5:06am | IP Logged | 4  


 QUOTE:
I'd suggest, if the guy really did that, he perform a more valuable service and take note of the actual elapsed time seen on camera in all those stories. I'm sure it would turn out to be a lot less than "seven years", and having it annotated might finally silence the "real time" wonks!
 
It might just work.
 
My argument to those who insist on "real time" is to stop thinking that superheroes such as Batman and Thor had only one adventure each month. It shouldn't be thought about anyway, but twelve issues of adventures to us takes 12 months of real time to take place, but it might only represent a few weeks in "comic time".
 
Again, I use the James Bond comparison: From 1962 until 2002 (forty years), we saw twenty Bond films. That did not mean 007 was assigned a mission by the government once every 2-3 years. From a time point of view, we could assume that only 3-4 years had elapsed between the time Bond defeated Dr. No to the time he stepped into the invisible car in DIE ANOTHER DAY.  
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John Byrne
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Posted: 01 June 2012 at 5:30am | IP Logged | 5  

Roger Stern used to argue that, in Marvel books, at least, the first couple of years took place more or less in "real time", but after that "comicbook time" kicked in.

I would add to that that there are three basic times in comics, the Past, the Present, and the Future. Sounds like the same as for us, doesn't it? And that's where the confusion arises, for some people. Because in comics, the Past is not a measurable quantity (except for some historical events, such as WW2). The Past is simply "what happened before", and there is no need to make specific reference to how long a span of time "before" occupies.

Think of it this way: for me, becoming an American citizen happened in 1988, and that's 24 years ago. Next year, it will be 25 years. Ten years from now, it will be 34 years. And so on. But for the Fantastic Four, going up in that rocket is something that happened "a while back". Was it seven years? Really doesn't matter, as far as the stories being told.

Captain America stands as a good illustration of why this can be tricky for some to grasp. His origin is tied the WW2. Steve Rogers became Captain America some time around 1940, and there's really no getting 'round that fact. But he came out of the ice "a while back", and there is no need to be more specific than that. Did he fight commies, go to Vietnam, meet Nixon? Sure. But there is no reason to make these things benchmarks in his life. "Topical references" are simply that. They add verisimilitude, but they should not be considered "historically binding".

Of course, the harsh reality here is that this -- the passage of real time -- becomes a problem only if the readers stick around longer than they are supposed to. Traditionally, comics targeted readers (mostly male) between the ages of 6 and 14 -- "From when they start to read, to when they figure out what girls are for," as it used to be said. Sure, readers were welcome to stick around longer, but if they do they were expected to understand that the books were no longer "for" them. They could still be read and enjoyed, but in the same way an adult could read Pooh, or Tom Swift. Or, for that matter, in the same way that one could read Sherlock Holmes -- one did not do so while complaining that Holmes was an idiot for not using his cell phone to call the cops!

The analogy I have used so many times before: comics are like sports cars. They were created for a specific audience, and for specific "use". When the guy who drives a sports car gets married and has kids, it's time to set the sports car to one side, for "special occasions", and not start complaining how badly suited it is for picking up groceries or taking the kids to school. As I have said, fans who complain about exactly that, and editors and writers who listen to them, have turned comics into this:

And there's not a lot of market for that!

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John Byrne
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Posted: 01 June 2012 at 5:36am | IP Logged | 6  

I'd suggest, if the guy really did that, he perform a more valuable service and take note of the actual elapsed time seen on camera in all those stories. I'm sure it would turn out to be a lot less than "seven years", and having it annotated might finally silence the "real time" wonks!

++ It might just work.

••

And yet…

A LOT of time elapses in the first Spider-Man story, in AMAZING FANTASY 15. Several months, at the very least, as Parker becomes a national celebrity, appearing on something apparently equivalent to "The Ed Sullivan Show". (For those too young to remember, appearing on Sullivan's show was a sign you'd MADE IT. Ask Elvis.) The first issue of AMAZING SPIDER-MAN, tho, works in something a bit closer to "comicbook time", as the opening scene clearly takes place IMMEDIATELY after the final scene in the first story.

Unfortunately, that didn't stop another writer, decades later, shoving several adventures BETWEEN AF15 and ASM1, completely muting the power of Stan and Steve's original story.

No wonder some fans get confused!

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Josh Goldberg
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Posted: 01 June 2012 at 6:49am | IP Logged | 7  

Sort of related: all the STAR TREK films of the 1980's, though filmed and released over a span of seven years, all take place within a period of a few short months.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 01 June 2012 at 7:03am | IP Logged | 8  

Sort of related: all the STAR TREK films of the 1980's, though filmed and released over a span of seven years, all take place within a period of a few short months.

••

One of the odd dichotomies in all this is that fans of some forms of serial fiction seem quite able to accept the ACTORS getting older, while the CHARACTERS do not. Right there on the screen is Roger Moore getting older and older, as James Bond, or Brett Spiner visibly aging while playing an android -- yet this does not seem to become a fixation.

Soap operas play fast and loose with time, too, babies being born and becoming troublesome teenagers almost overnight.

It comes back to something I said about Joe Johnston's approach to directing CAPTAIN AMERICA. This is is guy who has directed movies about shrunken children, magical board games, cloned dinosaurs, and even one superhero, and has bought into the essential tropes of these stories apparently without effort. But hand him Captain America, and suddenly he wants "realism". WTF??

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Peter Martin
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Posted: 01 June 2012 at 7:24am | IP Logged | 9  

The sports car analogy is very apt. 
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Lars Johansson
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Posted: 01 June 2012 at 7:34am | IP Logged | 10  

Could you see Data age on screen? Are there pictures to compare? Amazing. I didn't see that and I was thinking it is the makeup that hides the wrinkles. I liked him and I recall reading he had a family tragedy once. If he got back and survived that with some wrinkles it's good. An android should be like 18 all the time if it was real.
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Ben Mcvay
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Posted: 01 June 2012 at 7:47am | IP Logged | 11  

I am going through the second ASM Omnibus and time elapsed pretty normally in those early years (a lot of references in those stories to previous stories happening "a few years ago"). This doesn't bother me because Stan & Co. didn't have some "master plan" and were just trying to tell good stories. I would think that they had no idea that these characters would be popular several decades later and that they didn't know that anybody would even be re-reading these comics today.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 01 June 2012 at 8:01am | IP Logged | 12  

I am going through the second ASM Omnibus and time elapsed pretty normally in those early years (a lot of references in those stories to previous stories happening "a few years ago"). This doesn't bother me because Stan & Co. didn't have some "master plan" and were just trying to tell good stories. I would think that they had no idea that these characters would be popular several decades later and that they didn't know that anybody would even be re-reading these comics today.

••

Stan and the Gang were looking to do stories that were more "realistic" than what was to be found at DC. Took 'em a while to figure that out, mind you. See Spider-Man battling aliens, or characters like the Space Phantom. But once they got on track, real time was very much part of the mix. Johnny Storm and Peter Parker graduated from high school (which Steve Ditko thought was a BIG mistake, for Parker). Reed and Sue had a baby.

But a lot of the thinking there was born of Marvel having traditionally been "The Little Company that Couldn't". Once it was realized that these characters WERE going to be around for a while, the brakes were applied. (I have long maintained that Agatha Harkness was introduced in order to get Franklin out of the book. Adults can stay looking pretty much the same for years, even decades, but having a baby around raises red flags.)

Alas, those early few years seem to have set the "tone" for many fans. Like so many who ignore or diminish significant parts of "history" in order to make their argument, they point to the early years, when Parker and Johnny and other teens, like the X-Men, clearly moved a lot closer to their 20s than they had been when introduced. That they froze somewhere just past that magical number is ignored. And, so, as more and more fans who think that way become the people actually producing the books, the rot begins to set in. Even when something as simple and elegant as the "seven year rule" is offered, and for a large part adopted, there will still be those who ignore it.

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