Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login
The John Byrne Forum
Byrne Robotics > The John Byrne Forum << Prev Page of 10 Next >>
Topic: WSJ: Worst Comic Ever (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
Author
Message
Neil Brauer
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 10 February 2012
Location: United States
Posts: 714
Posted: 28 May 2012 at 12:44pm | IP Logged | 1  

I really do not GET it!

.......................................

IMO, Watchmen would not work without the connection to the Charlton characters.  It reminds me of looking at fan boards on movies that I am particularly fond of.  I was reading comments on the movie "About Schmidt" a while back and some of the "fans" were asking "Why does he cry at the end?"  It makes you think they are blatherying on about things they don't understand.

I think they are the ones that don't GET it.

Back to Top profile | search
 
Tim Cousar
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 12 May 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 1665
Posted: 28 May 2012 at 1:29pm | IP Logged | 2  

Wasn't it Mary Jane that made the deal with Mephisto?
Back to Top profile | search
 
Dave Kopperman
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 27 December 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 3334
Posted: 28 May 2012 at 1:31pm | IP Logged | 3  

 JB wrote:
If you "footnote" the source somewhere in the story, it's NOT plagiarism?

I'm going to read 'Voyage to Arcturus', partly to see just how closely the two works mirror each other, and partly because it sounds like it falls right in my sweet spot by all descriptions.  Based on other's analysis of the original book, the physical/spiritual journey metaphor structure is the same, but that's a wide enough thematic area that 'plagarism' would be too specific - not to mention pejorative - a term to describe what Moore was doing in Promethea.

If anything, what Moore is most frequently guilty of is the dreaded pastiche, which has rendered the last three volumes of 'League of Extraordinary Gentlemen' inert and interminable.  'Lost Girls' could perhaps also fall into this description, but I'm not sure how much of that is the writing and how much is the art, which is pretty and colorful but about as sexy as an old Playboy pictorial redone as a Paint with Water coloring book.

'Lost Girls' is obviously the hinge on which most of Moore's moral argument falls apart, because it's pretty clear that there's a distinction between legally and with permission taking someone else's superhero characters and putting them through a grittier adventure then they had previously been involved with and making a coffee table tijuana bible out of them humping their way through pre-war Europe.  It's not plagiarism, per se, but it's also not a glass house I'd want to be living in if I wanted to prevent others from writing characters that I created, or at least felt I created.

It should be noted that when pressed on this issue - particularly with 'Lost Girls' and 'League,' he argues that either the original authors are long dead or the characters are public domain.  Which is all fine and good, except for the fact that goddamn Voldemort turns up in the most recent 'League' volume, as a sort of hippie quasi-rapist, which I'm not sure is just irony-free blindness on Moore's part, or an actual 'come and get me' kind of swing against Warner/DC.  In either case, I'm sure JK Rowling would be thrilled by the portrayal.
Back to Top profile | search | www
 
Flavio Sapha
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: Brazil
Posts: 12912
Posted: 28 May 2012 at 2:02pm | IP Logged | 4  

plagiarism
++++

Hey, the whole has-been super-heroes was first done in Robert Mayer´s SUPERFOLKS!

I wonder how HE feels about Watchmen (and stuff like Kingdom Come)!
Back to Top profile | search
 
John Byrne
Avatar
Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133257
Posted: 28 May 2012 at 2:10pm | IP Logged | 5  

As I have said many times before, since the entire legal might of the literary (and motion picture) world did not descend upon DC and Alan Moore, following the publication of WATCHMEN, I can only assume the several "sampled" moments were NOT plagiarism.

I just don't understand WHY they weren't!

Back to Top profile | search
 
Dave Kopperman
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 27 December 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 3334
Posted: 28 May 2012 at 2:19pm | IP Logged | 6  

Where did the legal definition of 'sampling' fall in the 80's?  In recorded music,a couple of specific high-profile suits around that time helped define legal usage, but how portable are those definitions between media?

Back to Top profile | search | www
 
Chris Basken
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 21 January 2012
Location: United States
Posts: 120
Posted: 28 May 2012 at 2:29pm | IP Logged | 7  

Out of curiosity, has Moore ever claimed the characters in Watchmen weren't Charlton clones? He describes the series' creation in the hardcover and openly describes how they started life as their Charlton equivalents.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Stuart Vandal
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 02 July 2008
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 143
Posted: 28 May 2012 at 2:36pm | IP Logged | 8  

I've raised the question before, without seeing a satisfactory answer: has Moore actually created anything that was entirely his own?

++++

The Ballad of Halo Jones
Back to Top profile | search
 
Flavio Sapha
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: Brazil
Posts: 12912
Posted: 28 May 2012 at 3:38pm | IP Logged | 9  

No dice! The Ballad of Halo Jones is a hodge-podge of scenes lifted from sci-fi paperbacks! Most glaring to me was stuff Moore took from Joe Haldeman´s THE FOREVER WAR.

Edited by Flavio Sapha on 28 May 2012 at 3:38pm
Back to Top profile | search
 
John Byrne
Avatar
Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133257
Posted: 28 May 2012 at 4:52pm | IP Logged | 10  

Where did the legal definition of 'sampling' fall in the 80's? In recorded music,a couple of specific high-profile suits around that time helped define legal usage, but how portable are those definitions between media?

••

The difference seemed to be some kind of bizarre interpretation of "fair use". Since the ACTUAL music was being used, not other musicians playing their own versions, it was rather like a movie crew doing a panoramic shot of the Manhattan skyline. The Chrysler and Empire State Buildings would show up in such a shot, and both are copyrighted "likenesses" -- but it would be unreasonable to insist that the moviemakers somehow set up all their shots so that neither building appears.

On the other hand, if I DRAW the Chrysler Building in one of my comics, I am making a deliberate choice, AND recreating the copyright image -- so "fair use" does not attach.

Which is why I can't figure out how lifting a plotline from THE OUTER LIMITS and having one of the characters say he has done so!! doesn't qualify as plagiarism. I really, really, really, really just do not GET it.

Back to Top profile | search
 
Jason Czeskleba
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 30 April 2004
Posts: 4617
Posted: 28 May 2012 at 7:25pm | IP Logged | 11  

Speaking of not getting it... has Moore ever commented on how the Watchmen characters being used without his approval is different than his use of Dorothy, Alice, and Wendy in ways that would have horrified their creators?  I really do not understand how he can express outrage over the former yet believe the latter is perfectly all right.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Dave Kopperman
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 27 December 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 3334
Posted: 28 May 2012 at 7:39pm | IP Logged | 12  

Jason: Yes.  See my entry above. He's been interviewed extensively on the subject.
Back to Top profile | search | www
 

<< Prev Page of 10 Next >>
  Post ReplyPost New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

 Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login