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Mike Norris
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Posted: 04 June 2012 at 7:58pm | IP Logged | 1  

 Brad wrote:
Well, whoever's reading them will know. I quit collecting DC comics last month, and much like how I quit Marvel a handful of years ago, I don't intend on ever going back.

Yeah, I know too. But I don't care. The continuity aspects just don't matter that much to me anymore. What matters to me is, are the current batch of stories entertaining? I don't need to know that the past 20 years of storylines are "intact" to enjoy the current storyline. In my opinion being overly devoted to continuity rather than telling good stories is what has tranfsormed comic into a dying niche medium.  
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Glen Keith
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Posted: 04 June 2012 at 8:04pm | IP Logged | 2  

Actually, Brian, I stopped reading Spider-Man when Maximum Carnage turned me off the character, so I never read the clone saga, and from what I heard, I'm glad i didn't.

However, many of your Marvel examples are not the same thing as what DC did. The Hulk in the magazine was still the Hulk, still Bruce Banner, still a gamma irradiated monster, just a different take. Even the Ultimate Universe is still just another take on the same characters. I don't mind different takes on the same character (I was actually a fan of Elseworlds) I just don't like it when some one trashes an original creation and replaces it with a new version that is pretty much the same thing, and then proclaims the new one is the permanent, forever and ever version from now on. Is that splitting hairs? maybe. My feeling is that I would have preferred DC to have updated the Golden Age characters, rather than pissing on them to make them the new creators own.

Rhodey taking over for Tony is different from Alan being replaced by Hal. One is a character driven story arc where we see the fall and rise of one character, and the rise and fall of another. The change was entirely story driven. And in the end, the original guy was back in the suit.

Alan being replaced by Hal was people thinking, "kids don't go for that magic stuff much any more, lets junk that and replace him with a sci-fi version."

The New Guy In The Suit trope has been played out far too many times for my taste, but it's a completely different beast from a total reboot of a character. It's even a different beast from the backpedaling that DC did to revive their discarded originals.
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Brian Hague
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Posted: 04 June 2012 at 8:12pm | IP Logged | 3  

I can certainly understand and sympathize with wanting comics to be a good deal more kid-friendly, Brad. I've been turned off by the violence-porn (and porn-porn) aspects of modern comics for some time now. I'm picking up only a few of the Nu52 offerings and finding them more or less suitable for general readers (Justice League, Action, Batgirl, a few others here and there) despite the occasional serial killer storyline or two.

I am finding the tone of the stories to be different from what I'd seen previously (again, I wasn't buying much) in that the storylines relentlessly plunge ahead rather than stopping to talk things over or, heaven help us, look back to "explain" and "fix" continuity "errors." That may not be enough of a change in direction for everyone, though, and I can see that.

Certainly there is very little available to hand to a nephew anymore.

 

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Mike Norris
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Posted: 04 June 2012 at 8:20pm | IP Logged | 4  

@Glenn. Though Johnny replacing Jim as the Human Torch is pretty much the same as Hal replacing Alan. 
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Brian Hague
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Posted: 04 June 2012 at 8:38pm | IP Logged | 5  

"Maximum Carnage" sounded like an excellent stepping off point, Glen. Had I continued with the character before, I certainly would have stopped then. I more or less left Spider-Man during the start of the McFarlane run. The mis-steps in characterization, the rise of Venom, and the lack of any writing craft whatsoever ("His web-line? Advantageous!") did me in.

Your characterization of the new creators of DC's Silver Age "pissing on" the older versions is somewhat off, in the sense that Gardner Fox was the writer of the original Flash as well as a contributor to the reinvented version. Robert Kanigher wrote the new origin, but Fox wrote many of the new Flash's adventures. Similarly, Kanigher was a contributor to the Jay Garrick version as well. Julius Schwartz, the editor who commissioned the changes in keeping with a more "science-minded" approach and keeping up with kids' changing tastes, was also around for the Golden Age.

Today's "diva" mentality had little or nothing to do with the decision to update the Golden Age characters for modern readers. The thought process was different altogether. Kids went for the Flash! We'll give them the Flash! New, different, and exciting, because new, different, and exciting are not intrinsically bad things. Any lack of respect for the Jay Garrick version was more or less unfathomable to the pros who wrote these stories. They themselves maintained a certain nostalgia for Jay which manifested itself in his return in The Flash of Two Worlds, literally allowing them to have the Best of Both Worlds, new and old. Once they found that readers liked the original JSA'ers as well, they brought them back, too. Why not? They had nothing against them.

Their only crime here, I think, was in assuming at the outset that readers should be given something new rather than just blowing the dust of something old. No one had more cause to be loyal to the past than they did. They were simply professional enough to set aside such sentiment and, again, INVENT something rather than go back to the well for more of the same.

I'll grant that my examples above are broad, but I think the basic conceit was essentially the same. Keep the trademark, sometimes the suit, but ditch the character or everything we know about the character. It's standard practice in the comics field, going back as far as the Golden Age itself, when characters were routinely retooled to fit editorial standards, whims, or the dictates of sales. The half-mask crime fighting Dr. Fate, Kent Nelson had the same name, and no one ever said the word "reboot," (still a few decades away from being coined) but he was definitely different from the mystical sorceror who fought Cthulu-ish demons early on.

No one saw this as "pissing on" the character or what came before. Simply changing times.

(Hey! Post 3500! I think I'll reward myself with a cookie...)



Edited by Brian Hague on 04 June 2012 at 8:40pm
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Wallace Sellars
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Posted: 04 June 2012 at 8:54pm | IP Logged | 6  

I should be able to buy and give a kid any new Big Two comic book
featuring superheroes without fear that s/he will be exposed to anything
inappropriate.
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Robert Bradley
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Posted: 04 June 2012 at 9:39pm | IP Logged | 7  

Exactly Wallace - why did they ever stray from that formula?

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Glen Keith
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Posted: 05 June 2012 at 3:25am | IP Logged | 8  

Yeah, I knew all that Brian, and my characterization of "pissing on" the characters was maybe a bit extreme, and while I never thought in those terms as a kid, it was how I felt as a kid when I saw that the reboots weren't the original characters. I never liked Aquaman as a kid because I thought he was a rip-off of the Sub-Mariner, and can remember being annoyed that Green Arrow and Hawkeye were so similar. Rip-offs bugged me as a kid. Even those characters that were original creator variations annoyed me. I hated Captain Marvel Jr. as a kid because I felt he was a rip-off of Captain Marvel, and it wouldn't have mattered to me one whit then if you revealed to me that he was created by the same guy.

And I'm not alone in that thinking. I've met any number of "civilians" who can't understand why we need a gaggle of Green Lantern, a fletch of Flashes, a belfry of Batmen, a surplus of Supermen, or work of Wonder Women. I think that in many ways it's the civilian reaction that's returned my thinking on these characters to my initial childish reactions. These characters can and do have the power to attract large audiences. many people I've known who never liked or understood the comics love these characters in the cartoons and movies. My own mother, who at one time told me that she just didn't know what she was looking at when I showed her my comics, loves the animated cartoons. And, funny enough, she has expressed dismay at the re-boots of those cartoons. For what ever reason, she loved the 90's Spider-Man and X-Men cartoons, but hasn't cared for the subsequent re-boots of those. She can't understand why they needed to change everything.

Comics have had a history of change for the sake of change. Fanboys often love (or love to hate) those changes. Sometimes they hale these changes for their boldness, or originality. Those outside of the comics just get confused. You'll say, "Hey! Look! It's the all-new Captain Marvel!" They'll say, "Isn't there already one of those?" You'll say, "Several, actually, but THIS one is TOTALLY different! A completely new, different character!" And they'll say either, "I liked the old one." or, "Why do we need another, what was wrong with the old one?" I've had that conversation many times, especially when I was a teen, and had convinced myself that the rip-offs didn't matter.

While Marvel seems to be playing catch up, DC has been the main offender on this front. They always seem to think that if they rework, reboot, retool, and streamline everything that new readers will come aboard. It has never really worked. The thing the industry doesn't get is that  the civilians don't care about all that stuff. They don't care about the history or the continuity. They don't care about good jumping on points, they just want a good story.

And I've come to agree with them.


Edited by Glen Keith on 05 June 2012 at 3:32am
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Glen Keith
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Posted: 05 June 2012 at 3:56am | IP Logged | 9  

Mike, Johnny Storm is at least different from Jim Hammond in that he wasn't a puppet, he was a real boy. The stories written about Storm are not the same as the ones that could have been written about Hammond. The difference between them may be that of morning and noon, but at least there is a difference.

Allen Scott and Hal Jordan, or Jay Garrick and Barry Allen, on the other hand, are as different as night and later that night. There is no reason that a story written about one couldn't feature the other.*


* Although, I can remember someone once saying that they stopped reading DC in the silver age when they realized that it didn't matter if the story featured the Flash or Wonder Woman, it would read exactly the same, so maybe there's that.


Edited by Glen Keith on 05 June 2012 at 4:15am
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Neil Brauer
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Posted: 05 June 2012 at 4:28am | IP Logged | 10  

Conan mentioned thr GL "outing" last night in his monologue.  What he failed to mention was that it was E2 GL.  The punchline was that we should have known all along because his power was derived from Emarald jewelry. 
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John Byrne
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Posted: 05 June 2012 at 4:51am | IP Logged | 11  

Conan mentioned thr GL "outing" last night in his monologue. What he failed to mention was that it was E2 GL. The punchline was that we should have known all along because his power was derived from Emarald jewelry.

••

DC really thought this thru, didn't they?

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Mike Norris
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Posted: 05 June 2012 at 7:35am | IP Logged | 12  

Glenn, Jim Hammond was written as a real boy though and I'm pretty sure his post WWII adventures could easily happen to Johnny. Even some of  the WWII ones could as well. The difference between human looking and acting android that has flame powers and teenage boy  that has flame powers aren't all that different from guy with magic ring and guy with super science ring. 
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