Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login
The John Byrne Forum
Byrne Robotics > The John Byrne Forum << Prev Page of 41 Next >>
Topic: DC to "out" established superhero (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
Author
Message
Brian Hague
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 14 November 2006
Posts: 8515
Posted: 04 June 2012 at 6:04pm | IP Logged | 1  

Amen, Eric.

It's only when fans or creators overthink these "problems" that they become problems. To those suggesting that Gardner Fox and Julius Schwartz should simply have told fans that the Golden Age characters "didn't exist," how many stories do you suppose arise from the concept "They Didn't Exist?" Conversely, how many stories arise from what was created? Are we here to read stories, or to play overseers to the writers and editors and insist, INSIST, that every jot and tittle ever written jibe with one another to form a perfectly cohesive, harmonious, and oh, by the way, utterly unimaginative, risk-free Continuity?

I never suffered a moment's confusion from the parallel worlds concept as a kid, although I was later troubled by the lack of imagination that came to be associated with it. The original idea was great. The idea of an Earth-3 as well was sharp and fun. At that point, Fox and Schwartz called a halt to the runaway train, and their next "parallel world" was actually a magically created alternate timeline which went away at the end of the story. For a while, that was it as far parallel worlds went. Wonder Woman had earlier journeyed to one. It was never mentioned. Flash went to a "mirror universe" at one point, but that was not tallied alongside the others, being another dimension rather than a parallel universe, much like Green Lantern's Qward.

Sadly, Schwartz allowed an "Earth-Prime" to come into being in response to readers' letters to explain which Earth we lived on. Once in place, characters and creators could interact in-story in a way that "made sense" in context. Again, a springboard for story ideas, but one more parallel world...

The late 60's and early 70's saw a massive influx of fans-turned-creators and they brought with them all of their fannish desires and impulses. Why did the old pros stop creating parallel worlds, they seemed to ask. Why, we could create a hundred more! A thousand! No... An INFINITE number...!! Each new raft of characters were assigned their own parallel world, with its own set of identifying complexities...

The problem with this, the reason the old pros didn't follow this path became clear within a few years when the fans-cum-pros looked upon their castles built on shifting sands and decided it all needed to be torn down. Too complicated... Not "Marvel-ish" enough...

And at the core, not IMAGINATIVE. Fox and Schwartz conceived of a fun, workable solutions to a set of story problems they'd set for themselves. They looked at the challenges involved in revisiting the JSA and invented a clever way around them.

The folks who gave us Earth-X, Earth-S, Earth-B, Earth-C, et al did nothing of the sort. They used an existing idea to concoct a series of unimaginative lookalikes. Cookie cutter thinking led to the Crisis, not the invention of Earth-2.* Should we hold Claremont and Byrne responsible for every bad story done in "homage" to Dark Phoenix and Days of Future Past? Surely they ought to have seen what would happen if they went ahead with these ideas, and put a stop to it before pen ever hit page!!

Those who can genuinely create do. Those who can't... grab the cookie cutter and have at it.

* Cookie-cutter thinking and an over-riding need to "Marvelize" every thing they came across...

 

Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Brian Hague
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 14 November 2006
Posts: 8515
Posted: 04 June 2012 at 6:20pm | IP Logged | 2  

Brad, I see what you're saying, and I haven't read many of the Nu52 books, so I honestly don't know. Have they SAID Blackest Night and Brightest Day took place, or are they simply using the characters as they existed at the moment they decided to draw a line in the sand and begin from there?

Going back to answer questions like "why did Kyle break up with so-and-so if Jade didn't exist" is EXACTLY the sort of thinking that torpedoed the Crisis and Zero Hour reboots (not that those were seaworthy to begin with...) Do we REALLY want some sort of Jade analog to be created who can play the part Jade played in that already-over-and-done-with psychodrama, and then have to explain where she is today, and why Kyle and Jade2 aren't together when five years ago we were told they were meant for each other--? Is that why we read comics?

My knocking them aside, Batman and Green Lantern are NOT exactly as they were prior to the Nu52 reboot. The five year timeline alone changes much of what we once knew. Just because Johns and Morrison's mothers wrote them notes excusing them from much of the rethinking being done, the characters are still younger than they were, less comfortable around one another, all of the qualities the other characters have. Concepts such as Batman Inc., Damien, and the Rainbow Brite Corps unfortunately carried over, yes, but we know no more about the origins or backstories of these than we know about...

... Alan Scott.

 

Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Mike Norris
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4274
Posted: 04 June 2012 at 6:27pm | IP Logged | 3  

 Petter wrote:
 MN wrote:
The way I look at it unless/until  they mention Jade she never existed and any story she was involved in didn't either. 

--

The problem, of course, is that the Green Lantern storyline continues as if the reboot has never happened. Everything that transpired before (at least post REBIRTH) still happened. The lanterns' past seem unchanged.

But gay or not, if Alan Scott simply resides on Earth 2, then Jade would never have been able to be a part of Kyle's life. 

This is perhaps one of the biggest problems of the "New 52" reboot - they decided to reboot some storylines from scratch, while keeping others. Giving people cause to dwell too much on questions like these. 

Which is why "New 52" became the perfect jumping OFF point for me.

Nothing I've read or heard since then has made me regret that decision. Quite the contrary. This thread topic is just one of many examples.


Does it? Do we really know what happened in those five years prior to "now" in the new52? All we can say is that the Kyle Raynor of the pre52 is in the same spot as the the Kyle Raynor of the Nu52. How they got there is anybody's guess. We've no evidence they had the same "journey".  If fact we can be sure they didn't given what we know of the history of that reality, 

If you're asking those questions, especially if they're the first thing that comes to mind, then you might want to rethink your interest in serial superhero comics.  Continuities are always shifting. Superman has had several continuity shifts, one of the biggest less than ten years after his creation. The old stuff wasn't referred to again and treated like it never happened ( Well,until the 60. Even then it was used as the basis for a new parallel continuity) Funny that a 10 year old from the 40s could roll with these changes yet an adult in the 2000s can't. 
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Brian Hague
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 14 November 2006
Posts: 8515
Posted: 04 June 2012 at 6:31pm | IP Logged | 4  

Neil, the Emma Peel Wonder Woman had nothing really to do with parallel Earths. Paradise Island was fading from our reality and taking with it the magic that gave Wonder Woman her powers and immortality. She was forced to choose between leaving Earth with her mother and fellow amazons or staying in Man's World and making her way on her own without her powers. She elected to stay.

Apparently, no one wanted to continue the idea once the original creative team moved on, and she was back in her star-spangled tap pants lickety-split, just as quickly as DC could do so, creating a number of dangling plot lines in the process. Ye gads, just the sheer number of Steve Trevors that resulted from constantly going back and trying to "fix" all that... Gahh...

 

Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Tim Cousar
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 12 May 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 1665
Posted: 04 June 2012 at 6:42pm | IP Logged | 5  

What I meant to say above, and what I should have said was:

If Barry Allen had been reading about Jay Garrick in Look or Life instead of Flash Comics, this whole mess could have been avoided.


Edited by Tim Cousar on 04 June 2012 at 6:43pm
Back to Top profile | search
 
Brian Hague
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 14 November 2006
Posts: 8515
Posted: 04 June 2012 at 7:10pm | IP Logged | 6  

Tim, your solution would mean that from day one, Fox and Schwartz "Should Have Intended" there to be two Flashes operating side by side in the pages of their comic. Maybe one's retired... Maybe one lives in an entirely different state, but two operating simultaneously...

Putting them on different Earths explained why there weren't in fact two of every character walking around the pages of DC Comics. Those "doubles" had their own world, where they were respected heroes in their own right.

The Look Magazine idea only looks good in retrospect as it's a better idea than Crisis on Infinite Earths. It's not a better idea, however, than The Flash of Two Worlds.

 

Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Brad Krawchuk
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 19 June 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 5819
Posted: 04 June 2012 at 7:20pm | IP Logged | 7  

Brad, I see what you're saying, and I haven't read many of the Nu52 books, so I honestly don't know. Have they SAID Blackest Night and Brightest Day took place, or are they simply using the characters as they existed at the moment they decided to draw a line in the sand and begin from there?

---

Well, they've had two-page spreads of events that look suspiciously like Blackest Night and Brightest Day, to say nothing of the fact that Lyssa Drak, the keeper of the Book of the Black, is still central to the mythos, with the prophecy of the Third Army coming up after the events of the Sinestro Corps War, Blackest Night, Brightest Day, and The War of the Lanterns. 

Plus everything in the Green Lantern books is a natural extension of the pre-New 52. Unlike Superman, Hawkman, Blue Beetle, the Justice League, Wonder Woman, etc., the Green Lantern books have all maintained the same direction and trajectory they were in before the New 52.

To argue, as Mike argues, that "we have no idea" how they got there, and that "it's anybody's guess" is patently absurd; we have no idea how Superman got to where he is, we have no idea what the full ramifications of changes are for Martian Manhunter, but Green Lantern is exactly where it would be if the New 52 wouldn't have happened. Sinestro got back in the Corps the same way, Carol Ferris still has all of her experience as a Star Sapphire, Arkillo continued on without a tongue (until it got fixed by Saint Walker), Atrocitus started off lamenting his lack of vengeance against Krona, who got killed in the War of the Green Lanterns instead of by his hand, Black Hand is a prisoner of the Indigo Tribe as a result of Blackest Night. Heck, we're finally learning the secret of the Indigo Tribe... because we already know all about the Red, Orange, Blue, etc from before the NEW 52! They never introduced those to the new readers - they just kept on trucking with them as if everything was already in place... because it is, at least for Green Lantern. 

No, Green Lantern hasn't been affected at all by the New 52. A ton of tiny details are exactly the same, and in fact are pertinent to the stories being told now with Arkillo being the last yellow ring wielder, Sayd being a slave to Larfleeze, Scar being a holdover from Blackest Night, etc. Anyone who thinks it isn't exactly the same book - just with a number change - is ignoring the insurmountable evidence that Green Lantern wasn't meant to be affected by the reboot, since it (and Batman) were already the top selling franchises DC had. 

And if everything did happen as it needed to to get where they are now... it couldn't have happened that way because it involved a ton of things that now AREN'T in existence. 

Which brings me back to... they should have just rebooted it like everything else. But Batman was Grant Morrisson's baby, and Green Lantern was Geoff Johns' baby, so they left those two alone. 

Screw DC. 
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Brian Hague
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 14 November 2006
Posts: 8515
Posted: 04 June 2012 at 7:26pm | IP Logged | 8  

Glen Keith wrote: "It annoyed me that DC could never commit to just one version of a character..."

Hey, Glen, how did the Spider-Clone Saga and Multiple Hulks storylines work  out for you? :-)

For that matter, how about the slew of Captain Americas, duplicate Torches, Parallel Universe Reeds and Bens, fill-in Green Goblins, and the Gwen Stacy clones? Is Jim Rhodes taking over for Tony really all that different than Hal taking over from Alan? The Hulk stories in Rampaging Hulk were in an entirely separate "continuity" from those in the comics, the discrepancies later explained away as being scenes from an alien movie that was being filmed... Because Krylorians apparently wished to explore the topic of YMCA shower rape, I suppose... But there you had two Hulk titles with two separate Hulks running at the same time...

Marvel's disparate multiple timelines and mutually exclusive future worlds are far more ludicrous in number and logic than DC's parallel Earths, but somehow Marvelites seem to navigate those pretty well... As well as Earth-A (Reed is the Thing!), Earth-S (The Squadron Supreme), Earth-616, Earth-X (Alex Ross World!) ... And on and on and on...

I think such discussions have more to do with picking sports teams to root for than the content of the comics themselves.

 

Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Mike Norris
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4274
Posted: 04 June 2012 at 7:30pm | IP Logged | 9  

And there are tons of tiny details that aren't the same. Such as there not being a Jade or a Alan Scott in Kyle's past. Brightest Day and Blackest Night can happen without every detail  matching up with the pre52. Superman can die without every detail of "The Death of Superman" happening. Many events can happen in the new continuity in broad strokes.We'll know if and how they did, if and when the folks writing the books tell.  
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Brad Krawchuk
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 19 June 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 5819
Posted: 04 June 2012 at 7:31pm | IP Logged | 10  

We'll know if and how they did, if and when the folks writing the books tell.  

---

Well, whoever's reading them will know. I quit collecting DC comics last month, and much like how I quit Marvel a handful of years ago, I don't intend on ever going back. 
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Brian Hague
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 14 November 2006
Posts: 8515
Posted: 04 June 2012 at 7:34pm | IP Logged | 11  

Well, Brad, I agree that starting over for one ought to mean starting over for all, but clearly Johns and Morrison decided THEY weren't part of the problem, and thereby created other problems entirely...

Still, if everything in GL is exactly as it was, and you were reading the books in great detail then, why not continue reading them now? Shouldn't the books maintaining story direction and continuity be a good thing for a GL reader?

 

Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Brad Krawchuk
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 19 June 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 5819
Posted: 04 June 2012 at 7:50pm | IP Logged | 12  

I've considered it, Brian, I really have. But it's getting to the point where I just don't want to reward either Marvel or DC for continually making the same mistakes. 

Storylines are still 6-7 issue arcs, characters are still mistreated even if they aren't the same characters as before (did anyone here like what they did with Starfire in Red Hood, or appreciate the softcore porn aspects of Catwoman? Hey, Mike - tell THOSE people to stop collecting comics for me!) 

Green Lantern has been a favourite for the past few years, but... it's still as guilty as anything for not being new-reader friendly. I still can't hand an issue of it to my soon-to-be 6-year-old nephew because of the graphic violence and swearing (ass, damn, I think I've even seen a shit or two). 

Last year I went to a comic shop with my nephew and his mom (my cousin, but since I have no siblings her son gets to be my nephew) and literally it was the most depressing comic-related event I've ever participated in. I had to tell him "no" when he picked up comics like Teen Titans, Green Lantern, Spider-Man, X-Men, and a host of others that I read when I was his age, because they weren't appropriate for him.

The New 52 thing is something I can accept, I enjoy parallel Earths, different realities, multiple dimensions, all those cool comicbook staples. But I can't abide by the fact that the New 52 isn't really "New" at all - it's the same garbage that's been heaped onto shelves for the past 10 years, just wrapped in the cloak of a new reality. 

I'm out. If DC and Marvel start making books I can buy for my nephew, or my friends' kids, or take to classrooms I'm subbing in, then I'll consider coming back. But this New 52? It's a total lie. 
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 

<< Prev Page of 41 Next >>
  Post ReplyPost New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

 Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login