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Topic: Doctor Doom VS Marvel Universe (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
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John Byrne
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Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
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Posted: 24 February 2012 at 5:44pm | IP Logged | 1  

The crossovers were indeed a big part of where things started to go wrong. Basically, having begun their existence with SUPERMAN vs THE AMAZING SPIDER-MAN (which was, arguably, the first time a pair of superheroes had bumped into each other without it being merely a "guest appearance") the crossover turned inwards and incestuous, and became not special but EXPECTED. So much so that many fans began referring to those guest appearances as "crossovers" -- even when the story remained firmly in ONE title.

So "crossovers" became EXPECTED. So much so that some fans began to feel something was MISSING if it wasn't wall-to-wall superheroes. SECRET WARS in other words.

To borrow a quote from Winston Churchill after the Battle of Britain, it was not the end, and it was not the beginning of the end, but it was the end of the beginning.

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Victor Manuel Fernandez Patiño
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Posted: 24 February 2012 at 5:47pm | IP Logged | 2  

Sadly...
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Brad Brickley
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Posted: 24 February 2012 at 5:49pm | IP Logged | 3  

 I just read what was on the page, and if Superman didn't constantly show up to get Batman our of his latest jam -- well, it never even occurred to me that he SHOULD have!!

***

EXACTLY!! Even today I read that way, no matter if it's comics or a book. I just assume I'm being given the important information that is needed for me to enjoy the story. All the wondering about other characters seems odd to me, just enjoy THIS story.
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Benny Hasa
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Posted: 24 February 2012 at 6:03pm | IP Logged | 4  

I've always felt the best written Dr.Doom was in Fantastic Four issues 247 and 258. Dr. Doom has never been written better than in those two comics.
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Kip Lewis
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Posted: 24 February 2012 at 6:09pm | IP Logged | 5  


It did seem that at some time in Marvel's history, Marvel started
addressing the fact that FF and Avengers were in the same city so we
started seeing statements like, "the FF are in space" to explain why
they didn't show up for big threats. Does anyone know when this
started?
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Ronald Joseph
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Posted: 24 February 2012 at 7:26pm | IP Logged | 6  

...we started seeing statements like, "the FF are in space" to explain why they didn't show up for big threats. Does anyone know when this started?

One of my earliest memories of this was back in 1982, during the 2-part "Nothing Can Stop the Juggernaut" story that ran in ASM #229-30.

Spider-Man swings by Dr. Strange's place, only to have Wong tell him something akin to "the doctor is out."  Spider-Man mentions that the FF and the Avengers were busy elsewhere, as well.  And I could swear one of the teams were "in space" at the time.



Edited by Ronald Joseph on 24 February 2012 at 7:28pm
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Aaron Smith
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Posted: 24 February 2012 at 7:37pm | IP Logged | 7  

But, there's the world we've built for ourselves. Everything is incestously intertwined. The FF and the Avengers are in the same city, so they MUST deal with the same menaces. Every Marvel title should be ULTIMATE MARVEL TEAM-UP.

***

I've said before, on similar topics, that the Marvel universe has lost much of its magic in recent years because it seems to have shrunk. When I started reading comics, the Marvel universe seemed to have four distinct sections or types of characters/ titles that rarely seemed to collide, making those rare occasions when they did intersect seem like something special.

There were the public heroes, admired and trusted (much of the time) by the average citizens, characters like the FF or Avengers.

There were street-level heroes like Spider-Man and Daredevil who rarely faced cosmic threats and stayed out of the big spotlight.

There were the mutants, not trusted by the public and kind of off in their own corner of things.

And there were those characters who the public seemed mostly unaware of and who operated outside the interests of even the more public heroes. Dr. Strange and Dracula were examples of this.

Sometimes there were exceptions to this segregation, like the Beast joining the Avengers, but the rarity of such events made them more fascinating. A guest appearance by Dr. Strange always excited me.

But now, with a huge crossover every year and everyone and their uncle joining the Avengers, the Marvel universe feels like a tiny, constricted, incestuous island with no breathing room for a single title to tell a big, thrilling story without silly repercussions rippling across everybody else's titles. Spider-Man, Wolverine and Dr. Strange have all been Avengers? That just doesn't seem right at all! Namor as an X-Man? Blechh!

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Mike Norris
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Posted: 24 February 2012 at 7:39pm | IP Logged | 8  

"Space Missions" were often the reason used in JLA for the absence of members in various issues. 
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Chad Carter
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Posted: 24 February 2012 at 9:13pm | IP Logged | 9  


Doom hasn't gone toes with:

Jim Hammond Human Torch and Alpha Flight seem logical, but I don't think ever happened. Black Widow and Ghost Rider are maybes. Particularly Ghost Rider, though I can't seem to make a connection. But the 1990s certainly had a lot of Ghost Rider comics I never read.

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Kip Lewis
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Posted: 24 February 2012 at 10:12pm | IP Logged | 10  

Didn't Doom fight Black Widow and Ghost Rider in Champions?

Likewise for Moon Knight and he got kicked out of the Avengers for it.
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 24 February 2012 at 10:27pm | IP Logged | 11  

Speaking of Doom being written poorly, am I to understand that his scarred face has finally been revealed?

If so, that's pure fanwank idiocy.

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Neil Brauer
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Posted: 24 February 2012 at 11:04pm | IP Logged | 12  

Aaron, that was a great post.  You summed up my outlook perfectly.
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