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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133334
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| Posted: 24 February 2012 at 6:02am | IP Logged | 1
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Since JB left the book, every appearance of Doom is a robot!•• During my tenure on FANTASTIC FOUR I upped the emphasis on the Doombots precisely so that any bad Doom story would be automatically explained away, no fuss, no muss. I just didn't ever imagine there would be so MANY of them!!
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Leigh DJ Hunt
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 February 2008
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 1570
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| Posted: 24 February 2012 at 6:17am | IP Logged | 2
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Have to say that that Bendis dialogue is some of the most misogynistic shit I've ever read. Still can't see how he (or his editor) weren't fired for it.
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Paulo Pereira
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 24 April 2006
Posts: 15539
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| Posted: 24 February 2012 at 6:20am | IP Logged | 3
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Edited by Paulo Pereira on 24 February 2012 at 6:30am
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Matt Reed
Byrne Robotics Security
Robotmod
Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 35950
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| Posted: 24 February 2012 at 9:05am | IP Logged | 4
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Nathan Greno wrote:
| I don't think any villain should have their own SERIES. The idea makes no sense to me. Who am I rooting for??? |
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Agreed. The villain works at the behest of the hero in the construction of a story. They are the obstacle the hero must overcome. I think you hit the nail on the head, Nathan. Although we can have a favorite villain, I don't think you'd ever want to root for them to beat the FF, the Avengers, Batman or Green Lantern. We as readers get involved in their machinations, but it becomes a really slippery slope when the reader starts rooting for those machinations to succeed. That's been my biggest problem with the popularity of the Punisher. Anti-hero, outright villain, whatever, fans of his many series of books are rooting for a killer. Although I enjoyed his initial appearances in ASM, the more he became his own beast via fan popularity, the more the line was blurred as to what, exactly, we were supposed to be rooting for and, as a result, at what cost.
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Craig Robinson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 28 November 2010
Location: United States
Posts: 1756
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| Posted: 24 February 2012 at 10:14am | IP Logged | 5
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I have certainly enjoyed my fair shair of villains over the years. Dr. Doom. Magneto (before they neutered him). Interestingly enough, comics often fall into the same trap of professional wrestling: the cool heel. Characters become so over with the fan base that they really are not villains any longer. And then, to offset the imbalance, someone comes along and makes the characters do some really outlandish dastardly deed to heel them again. I really have no issue with Punisher's moral ambiguity (and often flat out immorality). Punisher reads like a Sergio Leone "man with no name" story with modern trappings. My issue with Punisher is that he exists in the same universe with superheroes. Punisher should have his own wing at the Raft. I'd much rather see Punisher written as crime-noir genre fiction in his own world, or a world shared with other Marvel street level-style characters who really have no place in the Avengers/X-Men/F4 pantheon.
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Matt Reed
Byrne Robotics Security
Robotmod
Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 35950
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| Posted: 24 February 2012 at 10:17am | IP Logged | 6
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Agreed. I have no problem with the type of character the Punisher is, only that he shares the same world as Spider-Man, the FF, the Avengers, Captain America, etc. and that he often teams up with them. If he existed outside the MU in his own universe, problem solved.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133334
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| Posted: 24 February 2012 at 10:38am | IP Logged | 7
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Not really necessary for the Punisher to be in his own reality, tho. One of the elements that made the Marvel Universe different from DC's (at least before the fanboys took over) was that it was "the world outside your window". It just happened to have superheroes (and villains) in it. Given that trope, it is not a stretch at all to imagine someone like the Punisher (powerless, dependent upon wits and weapons) exists there in much the same way Batman exists in the DCU.He shouldn't join the Avengers, tho!
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Matt Reed
Byrne Robotics Security
Robotmod
Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 35950
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| Posted: 24 February 2012 at 10:41am | IP Logged | 8
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Maybe that's it. His numerous team-ups with various superheroes who should, first and foremost, turn him over to the authorities rather than work with him. If he existed in his own corner and rarely, if ever, came in contact with NYC's heroes, then maybe I could accept him as part of the larger whole.
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Joel Tesch
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 May 2006
Posts: 2830
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| Posted: 24 February 2012 at 11:14am | IP Logged | 9
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Yeah...just stick him in Chicago where he's away from the stomping grounds of most of the heroes. Then you do away with the "well, why doesn't Spider-Man just capture him?" questions too...
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Mike Norris
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4274
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| Posted: 24 February 2012 at 12:52pm | IP Logged | 10
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Not a question that should be asked, IMO.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133334
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| Posted: 24 February 2012 at 1:19pm | IP Logged | 11
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Not a question that should be asked, IMO. •• That's the ultimate bottom line -- and, alas, one that became invalid a LONG time ago. Right around the time fans started asking "Where were the Avengers when Galactus attacked the FF?" Which, by the way, they didn't start asking until YEARS later. But, there's the world we've built for ourselves. Everything is incestously intertwined. The FF and the Avengers are in the same city, so they MUST deal with the same menaces. Every Marvel title should be ULTIMATE MARVEL TEAM-UP. And y'know, these are questions that absolutely did not occur to me when I was a kid, reading comics. I just read what was on the page, and if Superman didn't constantly show up to get Batman our of his latest jam -- well, it never even occurred to me that he SHOULD have!!
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Carmen Bernardo
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 08 August 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 3666
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| Posted: 24 February 2012 at 5:20pm | IP Logged | 12
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I think I started noticing all that "inbreeding" at Marvel at some point towards the end of the 1980s. As soon as Marvel started letting the crossovers affect everybody in the universe, it was a matter of time before it all started blending together.
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Topic Closed)
