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Topic: Horror and Superheroes (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Knut Robert Knutsen
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Posted: 18 October 2011 at 1:31am | IP Logged | 1  

"I don't know why Superman is an example of how horror cannot find its way into his comic."

Not saying impossible, I'm saying it's more difficult. An example was given of Superman being placed far from a yellow sun, with diminished powers, fighting Aliens.  Yes, but he had to be depowered to be threatened.

Street level heroes can easily experience horror while at the top of their game. You can dump Batman into just about any horror scenario and make it work, somehow. Superman needs to be seriously depowered to get there, or there needs to be a good, plausible gimmick as to why he's under threat even with his powers. So that's an added level of clever that not all writers are up to.

The Silver Banshee (first appearance in JB's Action run) is an example of Horror that worked, but also an example of how Superman is less vulnerable. Silver Banshee's mystic scream "killed" Superman, but he was so powerful that the scream only stopped his heart and put him in suspended animation.

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Aaron Smith
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Posted: 18 October 2011 at 6:13am | IP Logged | 2  

That Batman story, "Heart of a Vampire," that Chad posted the cover to is a great story, with an ending that makes it feel like Batman has stepped into an old EC comic.
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Tony Midyett
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Posted: 18 October 2011 at 6:16am | IP Logged | 3  

^ I swear that cover artist traced a photo of Christopher Lee's face!  
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Ed Love
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Posted: 18 October 2011 at 9:20am | IP Logged | 4  

Having a vampire in a story doesn't necessarily make it a horror story. Monsters and horror aren't the same thing. The Brenden Fraser Mummy movies are more action/adventure movies than horror, for example. Just as Alien is a horror/slasher pic with the trappings of science-fiction.

The problem with horror and superheroes is that they are trying to achieve two different things. Superheroes are at their core power fantasies, empowerment, and hopefully a sense of wonder and thus ideal for the action and adventure. True horror has at its core the opposite: helplessness, dread, unsettling and a sense of inevitable finality. Both types of stories are going for visceral responses but the types of responses they are aiming for are different. While many superhero comics have used supernatural beings such as vampires, werewolves, mummies, etc as foes and heroes, they still usually fall more firmly into the camp of being an action-adventure story than a horror story. Even Buffy and Angel are often more of superhero/action stories with horror trappings than actual horror stories (though occasionally they do go for true horror). Likewise, you'll find mummies, vampires and the likes in all sorts of Fantasy novels, some modern some D&D inspired. Again, the focus is rarely on going for the horror visceral as opposed to action, adventure, titilation, etct. The first GA Joker story I'd say qualifies as a horror-superhero story even though it doesn't feature a supernatural monster. There is mood, a visually macabre unsettling villain, and a sense that he can kill and strike whenever and whoever he likes.

The serial nature of most comics makes horror even harder to work. One expects the main characters to make it out alive (even if you can temporarily "trick" your mind, that preconception is still there), but for the helplessness and dread to work, there needs to be sense of real jeopardy. Hard to achieve when the main characters and major status quo is expected to be in place the following issue.
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Tony Midyett
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Posted: 18 October 2011 at 10:22pm | IP Logged | 5  

^ You make good points, Ed, but I still say the two genres can cross over, when it's handled just right.  I even think a good writer could slip Howard the Duck into a Superman story, and do an all-out comedy/slapstick thing, if he was careful to be respectful of The Man of Steel.
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Dale Lerette
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Posted: 19 October 2011 at 5:41am | IP Logged | 6  

Captain America vs. Baron Blood really stand out in my mind as an example of Horror that works very well well with Superheroes. I agree that the street level heroes like Captain America and Daredevil or Batman and Robin would probably work better than the heavy hitters. Although Spider Man did have his own encounters with Morbius. All classics now. 

I do remember one funny instance when a vampire tried to tackle Luke Cage and could not penetrate his skin with a bite. He started to look for other sources, such as the eyes for example. Luke Cage was hypnotised and standing there as the vampire examined him for a weak spots.

I've often thought that Marvel should do a limited edition series where a few street level characters, such as Captain America, Daredevil and Nightcrawler for example were brought together under extraordinary circumstance and modelled briefly as vampire hunters. Each character would have some kind of "faith" that is being challenged in the story as they combat the Vampire Hoards.

The thing with a horror story is that there has to really be the chance of death to the hero and you have to get some macabre sense of dread or horror from the work. If the hero is too powerful and there is no real chance of them dying then there is no horror, although other people close to them could potentially be victems I guess. But I don't think that would be as compelling.

Edit: I will also note the Lovecraftian influence on at least the infamous insane asylum in the Batman story. Arkham is a well known town in Lovecraft's stories. 

 

 

 



Edited by Dale Lerette on 19 October 2011 at 8:28am
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Lars Johansson
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Posted: 19 October 2011 at 6:21am | IP Logged | 7  

Tomb of Dracula became just Dracula here. Has Doctor Morbius met the Marvel Dracula (Tomb of Dracula)? I like Marv Wolfman's Dracula but Marv Wolfman's man of Steel, that was as if he still wrote Dracula or Teen Titans. Knut and me as Scandinavian super-heroes that would be real horror.
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Tony Midyett
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Posted: 19 October 2011 at 7:15am | IP Logged | 8  

Tomb of Dracula became just Dracula here. Has Doctor Morbius met the Marvel Dracula (Tomb of Dracula)? 

------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------

That's a good question...I'm going to look into that.

I'm back!  Well, I Googled it, and it seems that the two have not, in fact met.  However, one fanboy in a discussion group pointed out that in the "ultimate" Universe, Morbius has hinted that he is Dracula's son.  <sigh!>  Since Spider-Man has 2 vampiric foes, Morbius and Morlun, he doesn't seem to meet up with Dracula that much.  Hmm.  Since Morbius is a science-based vampire, what would happen if he were bitten by a magic-based one?  Interesting....


Edited by Tony Midyett on 19 October 2011 at 7:19am
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Chad Carter
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Posted: 19 October 2011 at 9:35pm | IP Logged | 9  

 

An example was given of Superman being placed far from a yellow sun, with diminished powers, fighting Aliens.  Yes, but he had to be depowered to be threatened.

Again, as with every major corporate-owned character, I don't know why Superman himself needs to be threatened physically. Isn't psychological horror as effective on Superman as any thinking human?

Ed, I disagree with your assessment of horror. When speaking of serial fiction, using a central character who comes into contact with all manner of danger scenarios, any appearance of a supernatural event links the "chapter" of the serial to the horror genre. In most cases, a serial character will meet the horror elements in whatever modus operendi the character has, but in almost every case the story is horror, whether the character is in mortal fear or not.

If played straight, a vampire for instance instantly creates a horror story. You can say the BLADE movies are just action movies with vampires, but they're still horror movies. And the horror stems not from the hero's mortal danger, as the hero is invincible in these cases, but from mortal danger to other characters the audience come to care about. In the BLADE flicks, that would be Whistler, specifically, and whoever else is teamed up with Blade and garners audience empathy.

INDIANA JONES AND THE TEMPLE OF DOOM is not a horror movie, per se, but pulp adventures of the sort were often rife with horror elements. As long as some character is threatened by those elements, and most particularly the supernatural, I think the story in question has established horror credentials.

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Chad Carter
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Posted: 19 October 2011 at 9:44pm | IP Logged | 10  

 

The thing is, horror doesn't work as well with most serial characters, outside of street-level heroes. Even then, you know Batman or Dr. Strange isn't going to become a victim, which is the core psychological element in all horror stories. Or, to put it another way, the victim is dead, which would be the "end" of the horror story. No, any character who experiences or is in conflict with a threatening, mysterious "unknown" is in a horror story.

Apparently the new Wonder Woman comic is putting this superhero/horror fusion to the test. I haven't read it yet, though I wish to, but I'm interested in the execution of such a bold move. Considering Wonder Woman's mythical genetics, she's not an illogical choice, if the writer is getting to the heart of horror, which is fear of the unknown.

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Tony Midyett
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Posted: 20 October 2011 at 3:42am | IP Logged | 11  

It could be argued that the protagonist need not be in any danger at all for the story to be frightening and "horrific".  Suppose Lois were kidnapped by Hannibal Lector and he was keeping her hidden somewhere in a lead-lined room?  Superman would be scared half to death---just not for himself.
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Brian Floyd
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Posted: 20 October 2011 at 5:07am | IP Logged | 12  

Captain America 253-254, the Baron Blood 2-parter, is still to this day my all time favorite 2-parter. And yes, I read those issues when they came out.

On the other hand, there's an issue of Superman written by Jeph Loeb where Superman battles Dracula. And the ending was...interesting.


 INVISO TEXT (Click or highlight to reveal):
Dracula bites Superman and instantly incinerates. The explanation being that Dracula more or less bit into the sun, since Superman absorbs solar energy.


And by `interesting', I mean `lame'.

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