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Topic: Stories and characters that fans and pros misunderstand (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
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John Byrne
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Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
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Posted: 23 September 2011 at 11:49am | IP Logged | 1  

Molecule Man restored everyone's stuff…

••

Shooter's recasting of the Molecule Man as "just misunderstood" -- something of a recurrent theme in his work -- is a classic example of a character being misunderstood BY THE WRITER.

When the Molecule Man was introduced he was a total badass, full of rage against the world. Rage his powers gave him the ability to unleash.

Of course, Shooter also installed the notion that his inability to affect "living molecules" (there's no such thing, by the way) was totally psychosomatic --- which means the FF have been DEAD since their first encounter with him!!!

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Steven McCauley
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Posted: 23 September 2011 at 12:37pm | IP Logged | 2  

I thought that the Beyonder destroyed a galaxy to create the Battleworld in Secret Wars -- how did the city from Earth (Boulder?) even get there?
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Knut Robert Knutsen
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Posted: 23 September 2011 at 1:59pm | IP Logged | 3  

"It sounds as if you're suggesting a necessary divorcing of the hero from his communism."

I'm not.

The discussion has been about what to do with Communist characters if one doesn't want to anchor them in the cold war (thus by necessity aging them in real time or handing them a "longevity formula") but give them the same flexible timeline as other characters.

In my example I used China as an example instead of Russia since China shares a border with Afghanistan. Personally, I view China as being a post-ideological "communist" state with an emerging oligarchic ruling class similar to circumstances in Russia. The "Communism for the people, capitalism for the leaders" type of corruption that one often finds.

I'm not suggesting that heroes or villains need to be divorced from their communism, but in 2011 an ideologically driven Communist character has a completely different and more narrowly defined, even marginalized context than he would have had in the 1960s. Whether Russian or Chinese.

In Russia 1960, an ideologically driven Communist could be a national symbol, a "Captain America" for the Soviet Union. A protector of values that at the time were officially celebrated.

In Russia 2011, an ideologically driven Communist would probably be strongly Anti-Establishment, Reactionary in wanting to restore a failed, discredited and widely rejected ideology. A marginalized, radicalized and suspicious character.

You are then faced with a choice whether to use the character in ways that reflect the change in context and thus the general "Character Story" or change the origin so that the "Character Story" stays as close to the original as possible by changing the context of their origin.

For instance: Black Widow is a Soviet Communist spy. That locks her forever to the cold War and ages her in real time since the Cold war ended 20 years ago. Or Black Widow is a Russian Spy, that allows her timeline to be flexible and unfettered by the Cold War.

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Stephen Robinson
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Posted: 23 September 2011 at 2:33pm | IP Logged | 4  

Not to dwell on this Catwoman thing...

But if this were a Law & Order episode, in which a detective hooked
up with a known felon rather than, you know, arresting her, he would
be a dirty cop.

Batman's a dirty cop now? Yes, he is a vigilante but he was often
depicted as just as honorable as a cop. It's been a slow decline since
the 80s when his not being a cop meant he could beat up suspects.
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Knut Robert Knutsen
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Posted: 23 September 2011 at 3:01pm | IP Logged | 5  

In classic Batman stories, Batman always tried to arrest Catwoman but she evaded arrest by some clever ploy, using her skills as a cat-burglar. Not by ...

I can't even bring myself to type it.

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Mike Bunge
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Posted: 23 September 2011 at 3:10pm | IP Logged | 6  

"Not to dwell on this Catwoman thing..."


I think it's interesting that this Catwoman thing is getting far more flack than the first issue of Batman and Robin where Robin's reckless pursuit of three criminals resulted in them dying horrible deaths.  For his part in getting three people killed, Robin gets a stern talking to from Batman as if he was out past his curfew.

Mike

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Joseph Gauthier
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Posted: 23 September 2011 at 3:33pm | IP Logged | 7  

The discussion has been about what to do with Communist characters if one doesn't want to anchor them in the cold war...

I see what you're saying now.  I read your earlier statement (the one I quoted) as: Communist villains can easily be recast as national heroes with legitimate foreign policy conflicts with the US (for writers up to the challenge)
Rather than: Cold War characters previously written as Communist villains can easily be rewritten as...

I interpreted your statement as a suggestion that a general, non-specific Communist character could be written as a national hero, just as easily as he could be written as a villain; depending upon the perspective of the writer.
In response to your actual suggestion, however, I'd suggest a preference toward keeping the characters as Communists, but tying them to a modern day secret global Communist society rather than to Cold War Russia; a Hydra of sorts, as suggested by Rick Whiting, but one dedicated to the forcible overthrow of all existing social conditions etc. and on and on...

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Knut Robert Knutsen
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Posted: 23 September 2011 at 4:16pm | IP Logged | 8  

"In response to your actual suggestion, however, I'd suggest a preference toward keeping the characters as Communists, but tying them to a modern day secret global Communist society rather than to Cold War Russia"

Yes, but that significantly changes their context. Besides, it isn't as easy to recast communism as a secret global conspiracy as it is with Nazism. Nazism is elitist, racist and nationalist to its core and is easily translatable to an anti-government subculture while remaining attractive to wealthy and powerful individuals.

Stripped of the authoritarian mechanisms of State Communism and put in an "opposition role", however, Communism presents itself as completely egalitarian (i.e. opposed to sexist, racist or nationalist agendas) , anti-capitalist, anti-imperialist and somewhat anarchic. Not unlike the groups protesting the WTO, eco-terrorists and the like.

When the Soviet Union collapsed, the Communist bigwigs transformed themselves into oligarchs and "privatized" national industry into their own hands. Most of them were post-ideological and only preoccupied with the power they attained from being "Communist". As they were able to retain or reclaim power after communism, there would be no need to seek to reassert communism, as that would actually deprive them of the benefits of ownership that they now enjoyed.

Also, for the rich and powerful there is no psychological incentive to embrace an ideology that basically tells them they're parasites and should divest themselves of their wealth and power.

Nazism, however, would flatter them with an ideology of "specialness and purpose".

Communism bestows no benefits on their leadership (such as most super-villains would crave) except when it's a mass movement that is at the control of a state. The only time a vast and secret communist conspiracy was able to sustain itself was in the fight against fascism from the Spanish Civil War to the end of WWII. After that external enemy was defeated, the Communist Resistance drifted apart. And even then, those people were motivated to oppose the unbearable prospect of fascism, not by a desire for totalitarian rule or to establish themselves in superior positions.

White Power groups, however, seem to have unlimited staying power.

What I'm saying is that just because Nazism and Communism were both bad, does not mean that they can be used the same way in fiction. They are widely disparate philosophies whose only similarity is the basic structures and self-sustaining policies of an authoritarian system, which can also be seen in other dictatorships and theocratic rule.

Once you remove the framework of the Authoritarian State from them, they behave quite differently.

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Mike Norris
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Posted: 23 September 2011 at 10:01pm | IP Logged | 9  

I think the comic book writers of the 50s and 60s learned that lesson, Knut. Switching the swastika for the sickle and hammer didn't quite work.
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Frantz Kenol
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Posted: 23 September 2011 at 11:01pm | IP Logged | 10  

This is a cool post.  There are many, many example which really drive me nuts when it comes to the issue of misunderstanding.

I will cite two.  

1) Peter Parker Spider-man.  I don't really know where this came from but the idea of portraying PP as a nerd geek loser.  While it's true PP was extremely smart, he stopped being a "nerd" very early on in his history.  by the time he went to college, Peter was basically the hot man on campus.  The guys chick wanted to meet and guys wanted to hang out with. His social problem actually came from the fact that he was so preoccupied with his life that HE ignored those advances.  He was perceived as being stuck up.
Today however, Peter Parker is depicted as a loser a geek and a nerd. He went from having Black Cat being in love with him to him becoming a geek stalker of a Black Cat who can't stand the site of him. 
And it doesn't stop there. Spider-man now is now perceived/depicted as a loser, newbie, who doesn't quite belong in the major leagues.  The new fresh faced kid who no one wants around because he is not only ineffective but annoying to boot.  
The reality is that SM is one of the most experienced superheroes in the MU. He has fought against and along side EVERYBODY.



my second pet peeve is the Superman/Batman thing.  Some people have actually argued with me that Batman could "beat" superman.  They cite TDKR as an example.  As has already been stated in this thread. that fight was Superman doing everything in his power NOT to hurt Batman.  There was no "fight".


Oh another thing,.. sorry.
Back to Spider-man.  Fans/writers completely misunderstand Spider-man strength and power comparison between SM and normal level guys like DD, CAP, Punisher and Wolverine, kingpin etc...
in the old days, Stan would always create a reason as to why SM seemed to struggle against such foes.  Illness, injury, holding back...etc.  that somehow has gotten lost and people now think that DD can go toe to toe with SM.  
One interesting bit of fact I like to cite is that there is a greater strength difference between Cap and SM than there is Between SM and Hulk.

there are so many other pet peeves I better stop now.
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 23 September 2011 at 11:46pm | IP Logged | 11  

I think it's interesting that this Catwoman thing is getting far more flack
than the first issue of Batman and Robin where Robin's reckless
pursuit of three criminals resulted in them dying horrible deaths.  For
his part in getting three people killed, Robin gets a stern talking to
from Batman as if he was out past his curfew.

-----

To be fair, the criminals were responsible for their own deaths. Robin
was being reckless, but the same sort of thing could have happened
with any hero pursuing a villain. Plus, I don't think they are dead.
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Stephen Robinson
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Posted: 24 September 2011 at 2:39am | IP Logged | 12  

Damian Wayne is a problematic Robin. I remember when Jason was
disliked but he was more a disturbed former street kid than an outright
bastard (literally and figuratively)
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