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Frantz Kenol
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Posted: 30 September 2011 at 2:31pm | IP Logged | 1  

WOW,.. I find the topic of Spider-man absolutely incredible.  It is unbelievable to me the degree to which Spider-man is misunderstood.  evidently by the pros and Even by his fans.

It would be pointless to address each point made in this thread, especially given that  regardless of the evidence people don't change their minds anymore.  So let me take a moment to address the misconceptions about Spider-man with FACTS.

Please keep in mind that these are not opinions. They are the facts as establish by Marvel comics.

Misconception 1:  Peter parker is a nerd who gets bullied the popular people and ignored by girls.  
FACT 1:  While PP was in fact a nerd in his youth, that began to change the moment he got his Spider powers.  He very quickly went from being the guy no one wanted around to being the Hot man on campus. The guy so popular that the party didn't start until he got there.  He was the center of his entourage and Flash who had been the main man on campus (in HS) became just another member of that entourage (in college). He is good looking and very desired by women.  
The only thing that may prolong this misconception is PP's humble nature. HE doesn't see himself that way.  But that doesn't change the fact that he is.

M2: PP could not get the "super model" type of girl friend.  
FACT:  From the very beginning PP attracted "super model" types of girl. The prettiest girl in his HS, wanted him.  In college, not only was the hottest girl in the whole campus madly in love with him, she was beautiful beyond her college.  During that time the other hottest girl in the whole neighborhood, one of the most beautiful women ever was fighting over him with the other incredible beauty.  And,.. Arguably the hottest, most sexually beautiful female superhero/villain character in the whole MU, was crazy over him.  Sorry to tell you this but PP was always hot.  Again, The misconception must come from the fact that he didn't think of himself as such

M3: PP is a genius.
FACT: WHile PP is clearly a gifted human being with a huge propensity towards science he is NOT a "genius" by the standards of the MU.  Some have cited his creation of his web shooters and webs as evidence of his genius, and though it is true by real life standards that would make him a genius, it does not do so in the MU.  Otherwise every other character who ever created impossible devices would also be geniuses.  Guys like Hawkeye, trapster. DD, Black Widow, Prowler, and many many more. as was said in the incredibles movie, If everyone is a genius then no one is. 


M3: Spider-man is the had luck hero who always loses and has to overcome.
FACT:  Spider-man had one major experience where he lost to Doc Ock early in his career but he recovered stronger and better from it.  It is PP who has had hard luck in his life. Frankly no harder than DD or Cap or any other person.  The difference was that PP lamented his life more than others.  He described himself as "hard luck" and mistakenly compared himself to other heroes.  Heroes btw whose lives were not as easy as SM assumed.

M4: Spider-man is a glorified DD, Cap, or human level character.  IOW, slightly but not significantly more powerful.
FACT:  Spider-man is much, much powerful than human level characters.  He is TWENTY or more times stronger, at least TEN times faster, can stick to walls AND has a spider-sense which warns him.  There is a greater Gap between Cap and Spider-man then there is between Spider-man and HULK.  btw, for those who think skill and experience can overcome any power disadvantage, that would mean Spider-man can beat the Hulk.  

M5: Spider-man struggles and gets beaten by human level characters like Kraven, Punisher, DD, etc.
FACT: admittedly this is a misconception that Marvel played a role in creating.  However, if you look carefully, Marvel also provides the facts about that. It is true that SM "struggles" against the likes of the Kingpin, But only as an adult struggles against a tempestuous 5 year old.  SM, much like Superman is very fearful of injuring those he fights against.  As a result, he holds back much of his power and makes his battles against much weaker foes more difficult then they are. This is not speculation. This has been established in the pages of the MU.  In the beginning Stan Lee always tried to have a reason as to why SM would struggle against such foes. He was either sick, hurt, injured, distracted, too angry to be himself etc. etc.  Also, it was made clear that while SM would struggle against these guys, if he ever needed to end the fight quickly he would.  While SM would struggle against a single foe, he would be capable of fighting several of those same foes at the same time and win.  This is another indication that he toyed with his enemies. Not to mention that he would go from fighting Kraven to fighting the Scorpion with almost the same degree of difficulty.  That is like racing a 5 year old and then racing an olympic athlete with the same difficulty.  Think about it for a second. SM can lift a 4 or 5 ton car. correct? That's 8000 pounds btw. how then could he struggle against a four HUNDRED pound kingpin?  he should be able to throw him around as easily as you and I can throw a watermelon. 

There are only 2 possible explanation as to why he doesn't. 
1)Marvel writers/artist are very stupid and have no idea that Kingpin only weighs 400 or so pounds, a meaningless weight to SM.
OR
Spider-man holds back against such a foe for fear of breaking and killing them. 
It is the latter.  It has been established in the pages of Marvel comics.

M6:  Spider-man is inexperienced. He is a new kid on the scene who isn't yet ready to be in the real game.  Cap said as much to him in the latest SM comics recently.  
FACT:  This is a HUGE misconception about the character.  SM is one of the MOST experienced superheroes in the MU.  That is a FACT.  He has been around from the very beginning. As long as ANYONE else in the MU. He came on the scene soon after the FF, and WAY before people like Ms. Marvel, Luke Cage, Spider-woman etc all of whom are depicted as more seasoned than SM in modern comics.  He fought high level super villains and heroes such as Hulk, FF, Doo, Doc Ock, Lizard, Scorpion, etc.   prior to 90% of Marvel characters even coming on the scene.
he has fought every level of characters in the MU. from human level (Kraven) to mid level, to High level (Hulk), to cosmic level.  He has been in ever plane of existence in the MU. Including outer space, past/present, Doc Srange's astral plane and every other weird plane of existence in the MU.  He has participated in world ending events.  He has fought whole teams by himself.  he has pretty much done it all.  
There is NO WAY that Spider-man is inexperienced. Yet, in spite of these facts, in spite of this post, I will bet that no one will accept that. And someone will come on and cite SM's inexperience.

M7: SM is not a skilled fighter.
FACT: SM is one of the most skilled fighters in the MU.  He has to be in order to accomplished the above.  the fact that he didn't study a particular form of martial arts does not mean he isn't a skilled fighter.  He is in fact highly skilled. But one thing more, his powers augment or compliment that skill in such a way as to render formal martial arts training incomparable.  I don't care how good of  a boxing expert you may be, if I outweigh you by 100 pounds and am much stronger you are out of luck.  

M8: SM isn't the winner that guys like Cap are.
FACT:  SM is THE quintessential winner of the MU.  HE is the guy who finds a way and wins. HE is the guy who never gives up. Who wins.  HE is the flagship hero of the MU. HE is the one recognized as being the greatest superhero of his generation.  Granted the MU is filled with GREAT characters who never give up and find a way too, but Spider-man more then all the others exemplifies that attitude.  
The only difference is that he is humble about it.  He doesn't come in thinking he is better than anybody else and is quick to recognize other's superior aspects.  It must be that humility which is fooling so many comic fans.

In addition, other aspects of SM have continuously been mishandled by pros and fans alike. Like his Spider-sense, his agility, and his webs.  No human can snap SM's web for example.

Anyone who depicts Spider-man as being cornered by a human martial artist or  having to put everything he has into a punch to stop Kraven, simply doesn't know what they are talking about.  

If Cap can overcome all of Spider-man's attributes because he is so great " he will find a way", then Spider-man can do the same and beat Thor, the Hulk, and heck why not Superman.  

What differentiated Marvel from old DC, was the logic.  A logic which ceases to exist the moment someone says Cap can beat SM "just because....."



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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 30 September 2011 at 2:57pm | IP Logged | 2  

M3: PP is a genius.
FACT: WHile PP is clearly a gifted human being with a huge
propensity towards science he is NOT a "genius" by the standards of
the MU.  Some have cited his creation of his web shooters and webs
as evidence of his genius, and though it is true by real life standards
that would make him a genius, it does not do so in the MU.  Otherwise
every other character who ever created impossible devices would also
be geniuses.  Guys like Hawkeye, trapster. DD, Black Widow, Prowler,
and many many more. as was said in the incredibles movie, If
everyone is a genius then no one is. 

-----

Except that in the current run, Peter is working in a scientific thinktank
and often assists Reed Richards with scientific endeavors. This is
more than a propensity for science. You are trying to argue that your
opinions are the facts established by Marvel Comics, when that's
clearly not the case.
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Knut Robert Knutsen
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Posted: 30 September 2011 at 3:02pm | IP Logged | 3  

What you list as "misconceptions" about Spider-Man are in fact axiomatic truths about the character that make up the Status Quo that the character should be reset to at the beginning of each adventure.

Donald Duck is an everyman, a loser etc., too. Yet it is a well used gimmick for Donald Duck to start an episode being the "World's Greatest Expert" at something, only to be undone by his own hubris. And not in stories by some hack who didn't know any better, but in celebrated and "canonical" stories by Carl Barks, the greatest Disney Duck Writer/Artist ever.

The thing is: at the beginning of each episode he's reset to a Status Quo of being a loser. Or an everyman. Struggling to get by.

Take any action show built around a handsome male lead, and in the course of 5-6 seasons there will be a story at least once a season about "the love of his life who somehow slipped away", and it will be a different woman each time. It's a reset.

This is how serial fiction like this works: Every single part of the backstory, continuity etc is seen through the prism of the current comic. Spider-Man is not succesful, a ladies man, experienced, a winner etc. any more than he's 65 years old. He never lived and fought in New York in the 60s. If any part of his backstory contradicts the claim that he's a nerdy, unlucky guy who gets in over his head, you're supposed to ignore it.

The only misconception here is that you don't seem to understand how to read a superhero comic. Or read or watch serial fiction.

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Mark Haslett
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Posted: 30 September 2011 at 3:04pm | IP Logged | 4  

Frantz, I stopped reading your post when it became evident you have no idea what the difference is between fact and interpretation.

The "FACT" that Parker was the center of his "entourage" is not accurate to what's in the comic books. How is it a "fact"?

Did it sometimes appear that way? Maybe so. If so, would that make it core to the character of Spider-Man?

Or would that be a misconception of the character as previously handled?

Knowing every Spider-Man story ever written is not the same as knowing how to write the character. "Getting it" is a quality of knowing how to evoke what was great about the character as he was first developed -- not honoring every barnacle that's been grown upon him since.
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Brandon Carter
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Posted: 30 September 2011 at 4:41pm | IP Logged | 5  

Adrenaline surge Hulk?

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Dave Phelps
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Posted: 30 September 2011 at 4:46pm | IP Logged | 6  

Frantz...

Wow, finally someone on this board who makes ME comes across as a conservative Spider-Man fan... (and thanks for that, by the way).

Trimming/paraphrasing, but hopefully not to the point of changing your meaning.

#1 - Peter as popular guy.  Not quite.  He certainly did a little better in the friend department as the series progressed (hard to go anywhere but up given where he started), but he was hardly ever the BMOC.  If he seemed like the center of attention sometimes, well, it WAS his book, after all.

#2 - PP and his hotties.  I wouldn't count the Black Cat as an example of Peter Parker's attractiveness to hot women.  She was into Spider-Man; once she discovered Peter Parker she was turned off.  She grew to at least accept him, but she was never thrilled about it.  I do agree that the "Peter, you're just not my type when dreamboats like Flash Thompson are around" period was over by ASM #7.  Heck, during the Stan Lee period more often than not he had one girl he was close to and another waiting in the wings wishing for the failure of his current relationship (Betty/Liz in #12-30; Gwen/MJ from #47 to the end).  His bigger problem was keeping the girl, and that wasn't because of his inherent undesirability but rather because he was always breaking dates in order to save the city from some baddie or another (not that he could tell them that).

#3 - PP's smarts.  Disagree.  He is a genius, but genius is not the same as not having to learn things.  He has the potential to be at least at the Hank Pym level, possibly even Tony Stark, but he needs to apply himself.  Unfortunately, other responsibilities pull him away from that and don't give him the change to reach his potential.

The uhhh, second #3 - Hard luck hero.  While other superheroes have their fair share of drama, he does have issues most characters don't seem to worry about.  (Cap may have worried about deadlines and such during the period he tried to give Steve Rogers a life of his own, but he never seemed to be at risk of losing his house.)  Thing is, he rarely has "clean" wins.  He beats the bad guy, but he ends up blamed for what the bad guy did or his time spent taking out the bad guy meant he wasn't there for someone he cared about when they wanted/needed him to be there.  His grades suffered because he wasn't able to study.  Stuff like that.

#4/5 - Spider-Man's power levels (heroes) - I can't tell if I agree or disagree (in principle; I do disagree with the Hulk comparison).  I think one of the appeals of the character is that his power set enables him to be a street level guy when the situation calls for it, and yet still hold his own when the more powerful folks show up.  Increases the amount of stories he can appear in.  Either way, while he can dodge things, they still hurt if they hit him.  So characters like Kraven may have to try a little harder, but they can still do damage.

#6 - Spider-Man's experience - Okay, here's one I'm with you on, although I actually like him in "the middle."  Folks like Nova, Speedball, etc., would look up to him, while Thing, Captain America, etc. would think of him as a kid.  But yes, as Spider-Man, he knows what he's doing by now (and has known for quite awhile).  Not that he doesn't occasionally make mistakes.  But any stories treating him as "new at the game" are absurd.  Stan and Steve didn't do that when he actually WAS new at the game.  His problem wasn't beating the bad guy; it was all the stuff he had to let slide while he was taking care of business.

#7 - Spider-Man skilled - Ehhh... yes and no.  His powers and spider-sense give him a leg up, but there's always room for improvement.  He tends to rely on instinct as much as anything.

#8 - Spider-Man as a winner.  See second #3.  Yeah, he wins battles, but generally at a cost others don't seem to have to pay.



Edited by Dave Phelps on 30 September 2011 at 5:33pm
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Paul Kimball
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Posted: 30 September 2011 at 5:29pm | IP Logged | 7  

Hey everybody go easy on poor Frantz. If people didn't voice their opinions
as if they were facts, most of the threads would be limited to just a few
pages.
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Dave Phelps
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Posted: 30 September 2011 at 5:31pm | IP Logged | 8  

I feel like I'm seeing both extremes at work here...

Knut, "This is how serial fiction like this works: Every single part of the backstory, continuity etc is seen through the prism of the current comic. Spider-Man is not succesful, a ladies man, experienced, a winner etc. any more than he's 65 years old. He never lived and fought in New York in the 60s. If any part of his backstory contradicts the claim that he's a nerdy, unlucky who gets in over his head, you're supposed to ignore it."

That means ignoring a LOT of Spider-Man stories...  (Including a bunch of the ones by folks like Stan, Steve, Roger Stern, and others who tend to be universally lauded around these parts.) 

The central conflict of the series is that he can't be in two places at the same time, and when lives are at stake, Peter Parker's business has to wait.  Virtually all of his problems stem from that.  His grades suffer because he doesn't have time to study.  His relationships suffer because he's not where he's supposed to be when he's supposed to be there.  He's worried about rent because he can't keep a stable good paying job.  I suppose luck plays a role in that so maybe we're in violent agreement on that one, but as to the rest of your points I think the majority of the published material disagrees with you, from almost the beginning. 

He's nerdy in that he'd rather tinker around in a lab than go clubbing, but he's hardly socially awkward and hasn't been since the single digit days.  He got off to bad start in college not because he was shy, but because the first day of class he was completely focused on his ailing aunt and didn't realize what was going on around him.  And that just made the "Beauty Queen of Standard High" want him all the more (at first, anyway).  While there are times he can get in over his head, that's hardly always the case.  (Beyond the standard superhero level anyway - there's supposed to be some sense of danger after all).  He has ups AND downs.  More than enough downs to make him stand out in a genre where most characters don't really have them beyond the "villain initially has the upperhand" period of a story, but not to the point where he's never had a good day in his life and doesn't know what he's doing in the costume.

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Frantz Kenol
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Posted: 30 September 2011 at 7:48pm | IP Logged | 9  


 QUOTE:
What you list as "misconceptions" about Spider-Man are in fact axiomatic truths about the character that make up the Status Quo that the character should be reset to at the beginning of each adventure.

Donald Duck is an everyman, a loser etc., too. Yet it is a well used gimmick for Donald Duck to start an episode being the "World's Greatest Expert" at something, only to be undone by his own hubris. And not in stories by some hack who didn't know any better, but in celebrated and "canonical" stories by Carl Barks, the greatest Disney Duck Writer/Artist ever.

The thing is: at the beginning of each episode he's reset to a Status Quo of being a loser. Or an everyman. Struggling to get by.

Take any action show built around a handsome male lead, and in the course of 5-6 seasons there will be a story at least once a season about "the love of his life who somehow slipped away", and it will be a different woman each time. It's a reset.

This is how serial fiction like this works: Every single part of the backstory, continuity etc is seen through the prism of the current comic. Spider-Man is not succesful, a ladies man, experienced, a winner etc. any more than he's 65 years old. He never lived and fought in New York in the 60s. If any part of his backstory contradicts the claim that he's a nerdy, unlucky guy who gets in over his head, you're supposed to ignore it.

The only misconception here is that you don't seem to understand how to read a superhero comic. Or read or watch serial fiction.

Really?,.. I'm actually not sure what you mean.

If any part of his back story contradicts the fact that he's nerdy We're supposed to ignore it?

Where does his back story end and where does the current run begin. The vast majority of the stuff I cited was in the 60's and early 70's and written by Stan lee himself.

Does this rule only apply to Spider-man?  Is Cap still a man out of time who hasn't quite adjusted to modern times and modern villains?

if so wouldn't that make him the newb?



Edited by Frantz Kenol on 30 September 2011 at 8:00pm
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Frantz Kenol
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Posted: 30 September 2011 at 7:59pm | IP Logged | 10  


 QUOTE:
Frantz, I stopped reading your post when it became evident you have no idea what the difference is between fact and interpretation. 

The "FACT" that Parker was the center of his "entourage" is not accurateto what's in the comic books. How is it a "fact"? 

Did it sometimes appear that way? Maybe so. If so, would that make it core to the character of Spider-Man? 

Or would that be a misconception of the character as previously handled? 

Knowing every Spider-Man story ever written is not the same as knowing how to write the character. "Getting it" is a quality of knowing how to evoke what was great about the character as he was first developed -- not honoring every barnacle that's been grown upon him since.

Interesting, while disagreeing you yourself concede that it "appeared so". Yes it did appear so, often if not always.  Since Peter Parker began college it was consistently written that He was the center of attention.  The guy Gwen and Mary Jane (let me remind you the two hottest girls around) wanted to hang around with.  And he was never depicted as the nerd who was excluded from the group.  Except when they were upset over the fact that HE snubbed THEM.  so How is that not a fact?

and no it is not a misconception as he was previously handled. 
Unlike today's perception which ignores the facts/past Peter Parker's growth was well fleshed out and made sense.

He was a nerd. 
He super powers.
That gave him confidence.
He put a stop to being bullied.
And grew into an attractive and desirable young man.
How is that not a fact?

Lastly, your last comment is interesting because that is precisely what I am doing,.."evoking what was great about the character as he was first developed" and pissing on the crap that's been placed on him.

FYI, Even during the Lee/Ditko years,... nay,...particularly during the Lee/Ditko years (which I hope we will all agree was the character as he was first developed),.. Spider-man was a brash confident, strong capable perhaps even slightly arrogant Superhero.  He was the guy who rejected the Avengers, thought capturing the Hulk was no big deal, and tried to join the FF because he was at least as good as they were.

I am begging you all. Please do not go by your memory of the character. Re-read his early comics and see for yourself.

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John Byrne
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Posted: 30 September 2011 at 8:40pm | IP Logged | 11  

And, we're done. . .
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