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Brad Krawchuk Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 June 2006 Location: Canada Posts: 5819
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Posted: 29 September 2011 at 11:19am | IP Logged | 1
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I get no sense of any love for these characters from Ennis.
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I wouldn't expect you to - Garth Ennis openly states he hates superheroes, and grew up thinking they were lame. It's been in a number of interviews with him.
I think this makes it abundantly clear why he was such a "catch" for Marvel! They hate superheroes too!
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Brian Rhodes Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 3332
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Posted: 29 September 2011 at 1:41pm | IP Logged | 2
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Are we sure Spider-Man is that much faster than Cap? Both are faster than average humans, but, as far as I know, neither can catch bullets in their teeth... As for the Spider-Sense, it doesn't make him psychic or able to dodge everything ever (again, he's only so fast). Otherwise, he'd never be injured. And he is...a lot. "On paper," yes, Spider-Man should be able to beat Cap. On actual paper, it probably shouldn't happen.
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Eric Smearman Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 02 September 2006 Location: United States Posts: 5822
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Posted: 29 September 2011 at 2:00pm | IP Logged | 3
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IMHO, the Punisher seems so stupid in a super-hero populated world. The gymnastics that writers go through to rationalize why Cap, Spidey or DD don't take him down are excruciating...
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Stephen Robinson Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 5835
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Posted: 30 September 2011 at 3:37am | IP Logged | 4
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This debate reminds me that in some ways Spider-Man has gptten too powerful. The 10 tons thing seems to come from the Marvel Handbook rather than what we saw in the comics. He used to struggle to kift a car. He shouod be a more street level character -- not a pushover but there shoukd be no question about him vs. Cap.
Cap wins not just because of his strength and skills but because he is the pinnacle of nobility. Spider-Man is a hero but he is young, possessed by self-doubt and the assorted traits of youth.
It's like when Spike beat Angel. It didn"t mean Spike is stronger and a better fighter than Angel. It meant that he wanted to win more at that time.
This is a key element in writing good superhero stories, I think.
Now, as to Batman vs. Galactus. Solo, no, but could he play a Reed Richards type role in a JLA vs Galactus story?
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133279
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Posted: 30 September 2011 at 5:05am | IP Logged | 5
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This debate reminds me that in some ways Spider-Man has gptten too powerful. The 10 tons thing seems to come from the Marvel Handbook rather than what we saw in the comics. He used to struggle to kift a car. He shouod be a more street level character -- not a pushover but there shoukd be no question about him vs. Cap.•• One of the things Shooter used to claim to hate in old Stan Lee stories was what we called the "Marvel adrenalin surge". That was seen in those instances where a character would, just for one moment, display a huge bust of strength far beyond his/her normal range. I was convinced that one of the reasons Shooter insisted on all those precise quantifications of power levels in OHOTMU -- something to which I strongly objected at the time -- was to make it extremely difficult to do those "surges" any more. If "it says here" that such-and-such a character can lift a maximum of 5 tons, then the more anal fanboys will go berzerk if a story is done in which the character exceeds that limit. Labeling Spider-Man's strength level as "10 tons" struck me as a way of undoing one of the most famous "adrenalin surges" in the character's history. Stan used to say Spider-Man had "the strength of ten men", which made his escape in that issue truly, well, amazing! But by establishing his strength level as 10 TONS, the scene becomes business as usual, and an "adrenalin surge" disappears RETROACTIVELY.
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Knut Robert Knutsen Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 September 2006 Posts: 7374
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Posted: 30 September 2011 at 5:31am | IP Logged | 6
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There is actually a fixed definition for "Strength of 10 men". In viking times, there was a measure called "man's strength", used to separate the men from the boys, that required a person to hold his arm out straight at a 90 degree angle from the body and have suspended from his hand a weight of about 10 kilograms or 20 pounds. For 2 men's strength and upwards the weight would be distributed to both arms. So any man capable of lifting 50 kilograms (or 100 pounds) from each hand while holding his arms straight out from his body would have the strength of 10 men. I don't have the exact terms, since I read in a library book a long time ago, but presumably the vikings were not the only ones with this measurement. It is something that is within the realm of what is possible for humans to achieve, but only barely.
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William T. Byrd Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 August 2009 Posts: 209
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Posted: 30 September 2011 at 5:41am | IP Logged | 7
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Holy Crap! I LOVE that cover! I've seen it before of course, but the reprint I have of that issue has different coloring.
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Stephen Robinson Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 5835
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Posted: 30 September 2011 at 10:12am | IP Logged | 8
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Spider-Man 33 also works as the last issue of Spider-Man or if it were a TV show, the perfect series finale.
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Mark Haslett Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 6415
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Posted: 30 September 2011 at 11:37am | IP Logged | 9
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Thread drift... William: "...but the reprint I have of that issue has different coloring."
*** The colors on silver-age most Marvel covers was superior to anything since imho, I have often wondered what happened? It seems like the use of greys as shading simply stopped being well-done at some point.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133279
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Posted: 30 September 2011 at 12:42pm | IP Logged | 10
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For one thing, K-tones, like gray, cost more, so the companies stopped using them. One of the reasons the Beast went from gray fur to black. (Black with blue hi-lites, which led him rather quickly down the path previously taken by his fellow X-Men, in their school uniforms, as well as Spider-Man and Batman.)
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Craig Robinson Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 28 November 2010 Location: United States Posts: 1756
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Posted: 30 September 2011 at 12:56pm | IP Logged | 11
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I'm a little late to this Spider-Man vs Cap party (been on the vacation) and I'm not going to add any fuel to that fire. I merely have a question: I have a fuzzy memory of Secret Wars (it was around the time my parents first bought comics off the spinners for me). Did Spidey ever square off against Cap, or Cap-level foes during Secret Wars? Or did he only square off against villians? On a side note, I've never really been a fan of hero-on-hero violence. Civil War was a big turn off. And I suppose that's my problem with the current shenanigans in Fear Itself. Not that it hasn't been done before. Just not my tea cup, etcetrablah. Now, villain-on-villain action? Bring it.
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Don Zomberg Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 23 November 2005 Posts: 2355
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Posted: 30 September 2011 at 2:01pm | IP Logged | 12
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Hero on hero violence. Like everything else in comics, It's all in the execution. (Old) Marvel had a great tradition of heroes knocking each other silly because of their personality quirks. In Secret Wars, Spider-Man gave the X Men a slight thrashing during an escape. He and Cap never traded blows.
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