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Frantz Kenol
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 June 2009
Location: United States
Posts: 189
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| Posted: 27 September 2011 at 6:38pm | IP Logged | 1
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QUOTE:
| As far as Cap vs. Spider-man... In the Marvel Universe, the star-spangled Avenger would get the nod. In the real world, the closest equivalent would be a 10 year old karate student trying to fight an Olympic-level decathlete. Because the decathlete doesn't know how to fight, the kid would have a chance to catch him in a compromising position but at least 99% of the time, the laws of physics would beat the kid down in a few moments. Mike |
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That is a great point Mike. Yet, If I may say your analogy isn't quite accurate. again it is fascinating how ingrained this belief is in the minds of even Spider-man fans. But Spider-man is not just an olympic level decathlete (implying of course that he is not a "karate" fighter just a bigger person. Spider-man is not only an accomplished fighter. he is a champion. the more appropriate comparison (though still not perfect because the power Gap is much greater still),.. would be between a champion featherweight boxer who defended his title over twenty times against some of the best featherweight fighters ever, going up against a young 250 pound heavyweight champion who has had over five title fights. IOW, though the featherweight fighter may be the "greater boxer", he would simply have no hope in such a fight (if you know anything about boxing). I don't know how I can say this to remind everyone that Spider-man IS a great fighter. He has fought against and/or beaten some of the strongest beings out there. Including Rhino, Dr. Doom, the FF, the X-men, Heck Silver Surfer, Firelord, Absorbing man, etc etc.
He is, an accomplished fighter. why do we ignore that?
Edited by Frantz Kenol on 27 September 2011 at 7:15pm
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Brian Miller
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 28 July 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 31161
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| Posted: 27 September 2011 at 6:45pm | IP Logged | 2
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using said shield with pinpoint accuracy to disable those mechanics. *************** Which Spider-Man could avoid, thanks to his handy-dandy Spider Sense...
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Frantz Kenol
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 June 2009
Location: United States
Posts: 189
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| Posted: 27 September 2011 at 6:52pm | IP Logged | 3
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QUOTE:
| Let's not forget, Cap DID wallop Spider-Man in ASM # 187 (?) before they went up against Electro. It wasn't a full on brawl, but Cap inflicted enough damage to convince Spider-Man things weren't going his way. |
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That is a good point. Unfortunately it has been established that (like Superman) Spider-man fights to the level of his opponents. He has gotten "tagged" by the likes of Punisher, Kraven and DD. In fact that is what has contributed to such a misunderstanding of the character.
Is Cap good enough to "tag " SM? yes he is. does that mean he wins a fight against him?
It has also been established, (if you read carefully) that he is capable of much more. Add that to common sense and know that a guy who can take a punch from submariner shouldn't be bothered by a punch from Cap. Vice versa, there is no way Cap can survive a punch from someone who can smash a car with his bear hands.
but your point is well made. unfortunately the fans aren't the only one who misunderstand the character. the pros do to.
Edited by Frantz Kenol on 27 September 2011 at 7:01pm
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Frantz Kenol
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 June 2009
Location: United States
Posts: 189
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| Posted: 27 September 2011 at 7:00pm | IP Logged | 4
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QUOTE:
| Jumping, running, dodging, blocking it with the shield. Or, perhaps, even, surmising that the webshooters must be mechanical -- because webbing coming out of someone's wrist, even someone with Spider-powers, would just be ridiculous (in a world or ridiculousness!) -- using said shield with pinpoint accuracy to disable those mechanics. The question is, how does Cap not avoid his webbing? |
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Ok, brian, follow that thought through. say thy are standing 10 feet apart. Spider-man shoots a single strand of web. Cap leaps out of the way,. how far can he leap? 10 feet? well however far Cap can leap, we know that SM can leap that distance with absolute ease. Correct? so say SM leaps right along with Cap and shoots another strand,.. and so on and so on. How long can Cap keep this up do you think before SM closes the Gap.
What if instead of a single strand he shoots a net? How long then?
Ok,, so what if Cap blocks it with his shield. Wouldn't that mean that now SM has a hold of that shield with his webbing? Who would win that tug of war? let me remind you SM is twenty times stronger.
By contrast,.. what could Cap do? Throw his shield at SM? well isn't SM fast enough to dodge such a throw? In fact not only dodge but track the throw so that he catches it in his web? If SM leapt 50 feet away in a single leap, wouldn't Cap have to catch up? What about tricking SM with a ricochet shot? well doesn't SM have a spider-sense which would warn him? again isn't he fast enough to cope with that? What if he punched SM? ok, assuming SM let him punch him, how much damage would that punch do. Beyond stinging him (like a punch from a 10 year old would sting me) would it do any real damage? :Let me remind you that Spider=man's body is strong and resistant enough to survive a 10 story fall. He once "rested" while 50 guys were pummeling him.
and lastly,,... really Brian?,... really?, Cap would be able to throw his shield with such pin point accuracy as to disable SM's web shooters? What would SM be doing while the shield is coming? Let me remind you SM is fast enough to dodge bullets AND has a warning sense.
(btw, I know Punisher once shot out his web shooters, but 1) that was with bullets and 2) well even though the great Frank Miller drew it, that was pretty stupid too.
Edited by Frantz Kenol on 27 September 2011 at 7:13pm
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Wallace Sellars
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 May 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 17698
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| Posted: 27 September 2011 at 7:01pm | IP Logged | 5
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By contrast, Spider-man's personality would have him thinking something
like "Wow, Namor is out of my league, I hope I survive this somehow", while
he is in fact actually kicking Namor's butt. (See ASM 211).
---
And as much as I like Spider-Man, I think Namor should be able to beat
him. Imperius Rex!
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Frantz Kenol
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 June 2009
Location: United States
Posts: 189
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| Posted: 27 September 2011 at 7:05pm | IP Logged | 6
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QUOTE:
And as much as I like Spider-Man, I think Namor should be able to beat
him. Imperius Rex! |
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that is a fair POV. It's not a given, that's for sure. Namor has some advantages over SM and SM has some advantages over Namor. Sometimes Namor gets the best of him sometimes he gets the best of Namor.
In my objective POV. I think that the combination of Spider-man's powers, ie, his strength, his speed,his agility, His Spider-sense, and his webbing make him the most well rounded and dangerous fighters in the whole MU. He is fast enough to avoid Namor, and strong enough to have a cumulative effect with his punches. Not to mention how his webbing could hinder Namor's movements.
But I respect your POV.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 28 September 2011 at 4:55am | IP Logged | 7
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…say thy are standing 10 feet apart…•• Why are they just standing? Are their feet stuck to the ground?
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Kip Lewis
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Joined: 01 March 2011
Posts: 2880
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| Posted: 28 September 2011 at 5:14am | IP Logged | 8
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As far as Spider-man's skills go, remember many people feel Peter
should be still in HS and we are suppose to ignore his length of
experience. Peter becoming a skilled warrior is moving far from the
core of the character.
But if you keep wanting to say, Spider-man should win based on stats
and experience, then Spider-man should have died long ago, because
on paper, there is no way he could beat, let's say, the Sinester Six,
when nearly all of them are physically his superior.
Likewise for Cap. He has beaten his physical superiors many times
before.
And both of them have been knocked out cold by people inferior to
each other.
Stats only go so far.
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Michael Penn
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Joined: 12 April 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 12703
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| Posted: 28 September 2011 at 6:06am | IP Logged | 9
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Captain America was quite mismatched against Mister Hyde, even fighting eventually along with Batroc -- but Stern/Byrne understood all the characters pretty darn well and put together fight scenes that were completely believable.
Speaking of that excellent understanding of Captain America, here's what I think is an apt nutshell:
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Corey Morgan
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 May 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 141
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| Posted: 28 September 2011 at 8:30am | IP Logged | 10
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Another character that apparently is misunderstood by both fans and pros, is Lockjaw. Dog? Mutated Inhuman? I read JB's story specifically confirming that Lockjaw was not always a dog, only to find out years later that this was apparently a practical joke played on the Thing and that OF COURSE Lockjaw is a dog. The key question, is what was Lee/Kirby's take on Lockjaw?
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 28 September 2011 at 8:59am | IP Logged | 11
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The key question, is what was Lee/Kirby's take on Lockjaw? •• They made no specific statement. But what they did -- without meaning to, I am sure -- was raise the question of when and why a puppy had been exposed to the teragin mists.
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Joel Tesch
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Joined: 19 May 2006
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| Posted: 28 September 2011 at 8:59am | IP Logged | 12
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Stronger? Spider-Man Faster? Spider-Man Advantage by being able to cling to any surface? Spider-Man Leaping Ability? Spider-Man Sixth sense warning him of danger? Spider-Man The winner is obviously... Captain America. BECAUSE HE'S CAPTAIN AMERICA. He would find a way. Whatever slight opening Spider-Man left him, he would take advantage of it.
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Topic Closed)
