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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133279
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Posted: 26 September 2011 at 6:39pm | IP Logged | 1
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Here's Captain America in a nutshell, from AVENGERS 4:
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Kip Lewis Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 March 2011 Posts: 2880
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Posted: 26 September 2011 at 6:47pm | IP Logged | 2
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Recently Cap told him he didn't want him on the team because he isn't good enough but went along because Iron man said so (something like that). -------------------
Just for your information, unless I missed something, that only happened in Ultimate Universe. Cap thought Peter should be sidelined; IM voted to train him.
Edited by Kip Lewis on 26 September 2011 at 7:14pm
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Aaron Smith Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 06 September 2006 Location: United States Posts: 10461
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Posted: 27 September 2011 at 5:27am | IP Logged | 3
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Thinking about this Captain America vs. Spider-Man controversy, I tried to imagine what such a story might look like. I love both those characters, they're my two favorite Marvel heroes. In fact, when I was a kid and was allowed to have 2 comics every Sunday when i went with my father to get the newspaper, Cap and ASM were the two titles that I refused to miss each month. I'd try other books on other weeks, but I refused to miss an issue of either of those 2. Anyway, as much as I might agree that Spider-Man is physically stronger, faster, more agile, I can easily imagine a scene where the two fight and Cap manages to find a way to win, probably culminating in an unexpected maneuver that completely stuns Spider-Man, leaving him amazed and with the wind knocked out of him as he can't believe what Cap has just done. In my mind's eye, it works and feels right and could have been drawn by JB or one of the Romitas or somebody like that. But when I try to picture the opposite result, Cap having been beaten by Spider-Man, it just doesn't compute. It feels wrong. It's like reading something Alan Moore wrote in one of those instances where he just needs to keep his hands off other people's characters. It's just some silly, instinctual feeling on my part, but I just can't picture a well-written story where Cap loses to Spider-Man if they're both themselves. (Perhaps if Cap was brainwashed or something and not thinkig clearly it would work).
Edited by Aaron Smith on 27 September 2011 at 5:28am
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Michael Penn Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 April 2006 Location: United States Posts: 12703
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Posted: 27 September 2011 at 5:44am | IP Logged | 4
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Captain America vs. Spider-Man
****
Stan Lee and Wally Wood, as most fans know, famously created a marvelous story featuring a far worse mismatch, between Daredevil and the Submariner, and made their battle plausible, convincing, and -- best of all -- preserved some things essential in each character at the top of their form, Daredevil as a ne'er-say-die hero and Namor as a figure most profoundly concerned with honor.
If Spider-Man and Captain America had to meet in some kind of combat, no matter the outcome, I would only hope talents of that Lee-Wood level (or whatever is today reasonably close) created the story.
But I suppose that's the point. My admittedly absolutely rank amateur's hypothesizing leads me to favor Spider-Man in this contest. But since I have admittedly absolutely no capacity to create a professionally publishable story leading to that result, maybe this is an example of the notion JB has quoted many and oft: the first story you'd do as a fan should be the last as a professional.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133279
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Posted: 27 September 2011 at 7:27am | IP Logged | 5
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…preserved some things essential in each character at the top of their form…•• Unfortunately, that's usually the first thing that goes out the window when fans get to debating who could beat who. All too often, it becomes an old fashioned "My Dad is tougher than your Dad" argument -- for "Dad" read "favorite character" -- and we get nonsense like "Batman could beat Galactus!"
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Lars Johansson Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 June 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 6113
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Posted: 27 September 2011 at 8:05am | IP Logged | 6
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What surprises me in this thread is the ease with which you all can tell which DC hacracter will beat which Marvel character. Btaman and Galactus that is obvious, and most are like that, but when I grew up every time it was a "Who will win Superman or Hulk", the answer was like "Well we believe Superman will win but now Marvel will sue us because we wrote it, so please leave it". So such questions were never answered, there was no Amalgam, there were not many crossovers, so these were unanswered questions for many decades and for many kids in the world.
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Rick Whiting Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 April 2004 Posts: 2213
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Posted: 27 September 2011 at 8:42am | IP Logged | 7
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I have a question for either JB or the board about Captain America. Is Captain America technically a superhuman? Is his speed,strength,and agility supposed to be at superhuman levels?
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Shawn Kane Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 November 2010 Location: United States Posts: 3239
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Posted: 27 September 2011 at 8:42am | IP Logged | 8
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sorry JB but Cap has absolutely no chance in fighting SM. •• You're wrong This is true. I'm bigger and stronger than my karate instructor but he continues to beat the crap out of me to this day. What he lacks in size and strength (compared to me) he makes up for in strategy, experience, and skill. Just like Captain America would.
Edited by Shawn Kane on 27 September 2011 at 8:42am
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Brian Miller Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 28 July 2004 Location: United States Posts: 31161
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Posted: 27 September 2011 at 8:43am | IP Logged | 9
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Is Captain America technically a superhuman? Is his speed,strength,and agility supposed to be at superhuman levels? *********** No. He's the pinnacle of human ability.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133279
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Posted: 27 September 2011 at 8:46am | IP Logged | 10
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I have a question for either JB or the board about Captain America. Is Captain America technically a superhuman? Is his speed,strength,and agility supposed to be at superhuman levels?•• This takes us into the somewhat gray area of just what defines a superhero. The "hero" part is easy enough -- the character has to fight the good fight, preferably for the right reasons. What about the "super" part, tho? Does this require actual super powers -- abilities normal humans do not possess, such as real wings, or optic blasts, or enough strength to lift the Great Pyramid? Or does it only require that someone be really, really, REALLY good at something? For myself, I'd say the latter. I have no trouble defining Olympic athletes as superhuman, for instance. So someone like the Batman would definitely qualify. And Captain America, who has been elevated even beyond what an Olympic champion could achieve -- yeah, he definitely qualifies as a superhero!
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Mike Bunge Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 10 June 2004 Location: United States Posts: 1335
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Posted: 27 September 2011 at 9:37am | IP Logged | 11
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As far as Cap vs. Spider-man... In the Marvel Universe, the star-spangled Avenger would get the nod. In the real world, the closest equivalent would be a 10 year old karate student trying to fight an Olympic-level decathlete. Because the decathlete doesn't know how to fight, the kid would have a chance to catch him in a compromising position but at least 99% of the time, the laws of physics would beat the kid down in a few moments. Mike
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Michael Penn Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 April 2006 Location: United States Posts: 12703
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Posted: 27 September 2011 at 9:40am | IP Logged | 12
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I have thought of Captain America as literally embodying the pinnacle of all human physical capabilities, which is to say every one in single being. Whatever would be the world record for whatever physical achievement, Captain America at least could best it and probably more (and most likely far more). Within the scope of what might be the maximum of the humanly possible, that's what Captain America could do. That doesn't mean he already possesses all human skills at their height -- so, he perhaps couldn't just pick up a bow and arrow and out-shoot Hawkeye. But if Cap decided to learn the skill, I wouldn't say he couldn't eventually be the best, and probably in short order. And even his first time out he would already be capable of shooting better than virtually anybody else.
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