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Marc M. Woolman
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 April 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 2096
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| Posted: 25 September 2011 at 5:39am | IP Logged | 1
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I think the people that phoned in to kill off ROBIN (not Jason Todd) were jilted the moment DC introduced another Robin. The comic book ads weren't saying "vote to kill or save Jason Todd" they were saying "vote to save or kill ROBIN" As for Peter Parker: he's not a loser. He's an outsider because his own life's problems cause him to ignore the opportunities for improving his social status. (And he should easily be able to kick Daredevil or Captain America's ass. They are just not in his strength class.)
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Kip Lewis
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 March 2011
Posts: 2880
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| Posted: 25 September 2011 at 6:05am | IP Logged | 2
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Regarding communism/nazism and the passage of time.
I didn't follow DC's 60s era too much, but did DC use communism as a
threat like Marvel did? The Soviets and communism were a factor in
several Marvel origins or early careers. It made Marvel more realistic.
As much as money problems made the heroes more relatable, so
does a villain that shows up on the 6 o'clock news.
Nazis were also relevant but both companies used them.
To be comparable in today's storytelling and maintain that feel of
realism that the 60s gave us, Marvel should really be using modern
day real enemies as the background. Only it doesn't work. One, Black
Widow can't be moved from Russia to the middle east or China or
Korea without changing her race or you have to create a complex
explaination to keep her the same. Second, people seemed to be
afraid to really use Radical Islamic terrorist, for fear of being labeled
anti-Islamic. Oh, you'll see a couple, but not like Marvel used USSR as
the bad guys. And China, people just don't view her like the did the
former USSR (or even as they did in the 60s.) Korea? Too
unbelievable to make her a threat????
So that leaves Marvel to focus on fictional terrorists, nations etc. In
some ways it works better to make the stories timeless, but it also
makes them less "real" than 60s Marvel.
Edited by Kip Lewis on 25 September 2011 at 6:33am
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Knut Robert Knutsen
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 September 2006
Posts: 7374
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| Posted: 25 September 2011 at 6:06am | IP Logged | 3
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"I think the people that phoned in to kill off ROBIN (not Jason Todd) were jilted the moment DC introduced another Robin." Oh, way before that. The "alternate ending" had Robin in a coma that he would probably never wake from. So there was no point at all to the "contest". Jason Todd was gone no matter what. And the inevitability of a new Robin should have been obvious.
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Shawn Kane
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 November 2010
Location: United States
Posts: 3239
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| Posted: 25 September 2011 at 7:17am | IP Logged | 4
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I remember at the time that DC sort of led you to believe that Dick Grayson would return to the role. I was kind of disappointed when Tim Drake was introduced.
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Shawn Kane
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 November 2010
Location: United States
Posts: 3239
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| Posted: 25 September 2011 at 7:18am | IP Logged | 5
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The story fixed one of the worst Batman stories I ever read which was where Leslie Thompkins let Stephanie die so she could teach crime fighters a "lesson" or something. Batman chewed her out and left her crying. Correct me if I'm wrong since I've been bashing him on other threads but wasn't that Judd Winick's doing? I recall that he wrote the issue where the incident happened.
Edited by Shawn Kane on 25 September 2011 at 7:19am
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Don Zomberg
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 23 November 2005
Posts: 2355
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| Posted: 25 September 2011 at 7:44am | IP Logged | 6
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(Spider-Man) should easily be able to kick Daredevil or Captain America's ass. Daredevil, sure. Cap, I think, would give him more grief than he could handle.
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Mike Bunge
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 10 June 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 1335
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| Posted: 25 September 2011 at 9:51am | IP Logged | 7
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"To be fair, the criminals were responsible for their own deaths. Robin was being reckless, but the same sort of thing could have happened with any hero pursuing a villain. Plus, I don't think they are dead." How many times has Batman or Spider-Man or Daredevil or anyone else ever got guys killed like that? The situation wasn't like Batman chasing a guy across the rooftops and the guy slips and falls. This was like Batman throwing his Bat-line around the guy's legs, causing the guy to trip and impale himself on a rusty pipe. Mike
Edited by Mike Bunge on 25 September 2011 at 9:51am
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Michael Roberts
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 14852
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| Posted: 25 September 2011 at 10:07am | IP Logged | 8
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The story fixed one of the worst Batman stories I ever read which was where Leslie Thompkins let Stephanie die so she could teach crime fighters a "lesson" or something. Batman chewed her out and left her crying.
Correct me if I'm wrong since I've been bashing him on other threads but wasn't that Judd Winick's doing? I recall that he wrote the issue where the incident happened.
----
I believe both War Games and War Crimes were editorially mandated stories, but the writer of that particular issue was Bill Willingham, not Judd Winick.
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Michael Penn
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 April 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 12702
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| Posted: 25 September 2011 at 10:33am | IP Logged | 9
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(Spider-Man) should easily be able to kick Daredevil or Captain America's ass. Daredevil, sure. Cap, I think, would give him more grief than he could handle. *** Spider-Man is ten-men-strong, super-fast, climbs walls, leaps stories, performs ordinarily impossible gymnastics and has his defensive "Spider-Sense" and his multi-purpose webs to boot. JB has often noted that Captain America should be drawn to look like Superman but move like Spider-Man. "Like" -- not just like! To me Captain America is about the most noble superhero ever created and I would take no pleasure in seeing him lose, but, straight-out, Cap versus Spider-Man, really... no contest. Of course, any good writer-artist team might come up with a convincing story that somehow ends in a draw between the two and that would be completely satisfying!
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JT Molloy
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 February 2008
Posts: 2092
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| Posted: 25 September 2011 at 10:37am | IP Logged | 10
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Correct me if I'm wrong since I've been bashing him on other threads but wasn't that Judd Winick's doing? I recall that he wrote the issue where the incident happened.
--
No, I actually like Judd. It was Bill Willingham.
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Kip Lewis
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 March 2011
Posts: 2880
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| Posted: 25 September 2011 at 12:06pm | IP Logged | 11
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I think Spider-Man may lose to Cap or DD, because he thinks he
should lose. On paper, he should win, but he views Captain America
as the legend and DD is his friend. He loses because he can't bring
himself to win. (Same with Wolverine. He should take Wolverine, but
Logan spooks him. And since he doesn't view him as a villain, he
doesn't have an incentive to overcome that feel.)
Plus Cap has the whole "Captain America can beat anyone" mystique
going. Even though he has been knocked out tons of times, people
think Cap can't loose.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133279
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| Posted: 25 September 2011 at 12:35pm | IP Logged | 12
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(Spider-Man) should easily be able to kick Daredevil or Captain America's ass.Daredevil, sure. Cap, I think, would give him more grief than he could handle. *** Spider-Man is ten-men-strong, super-fast, climbs walls, leaps stories, performs ordinarily impossible gymnastics and has his defensive "Spider-Sense" and his multi-purpose webs to boot. JB has often noted that Captain America should be drawn to look like Superman but move like Spider-Man. "Like" -- not just like! To me Captain America is about the most noble superhero ever created and I would take no pleasure in seeing him lose, but, straight-out, Cap versus Spider-Man, really... no contest. •• Yes -- Spider-Man would lose.
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Topic Closed)
