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John Byrne
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Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
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Posted: 04 September 2011 at 8:09am | IP Logged | 1  

…JB even removed (Namor's) power of flight early into the run (can't remember why…

••

Just to mess with his head.

I planned to restore his flight power within a fairly short time, but I got punted off the book before I could do it.

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Mark Waldman
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Posted: 04 September 2011 at 8:40am | IP Logged | 2  

Reread JB's Namor run not long ago, enjoyed it very much.

Overall though I'm more of an Aquaman fan. I think anyone who is one the fence or dislikes the character should try to get their hands on anything done by Nick Cardy or Jim Aparo; I would think that might change your mind.

I also recommend the 60s animated series where Aquaman rotated with Superman and Batman. They also did chapters with Flash, Hawkman, Green Lantern, Superboy and the Teen Titans. Years back I found a DVD someone put together of Aquaman's stories from that. Good stuff - Aqualad, Mera and good ol' Tusky the walrus for comic relief.

If you read the mentioned books and watch the animated adventures and still dislike Aquaman, the king of the seven seas just isn't for you.

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Wallace Sellars
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Posted: 04 September 2011 at 10:05am | IP Logged | 3  

I also like the way JB got rid of Namor's metal wrist bands way back when he
and Sue helped put a stop to the Master's plans over in ALPHA FLIGHT.
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Ron Chevrier
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Posted: 04 September 2011 at 12:06pm | IP Logged | 4  

So Thom and Wallace, I gather that you prefer the surly Namor-clone personality of Aquaman, as demonstrated in those early Justice League cartoons? Granted, his Brave and the Bold personality is nothing like his comic book personality, but at least it is clear that he enjoys the life of a costumed adventurer, has many friends among his peers, is loved by his family, and is a generally competent hero.

Super Friends showed very little of that, while the animated Justice League opened up with him in conflict with all surface dwellers including the League, being betrayed by his brother and some of his soldiers, and having to cut off his own hand to save his son (this last part was well done, mind you).

My point is that I've had it up to here with surly heroes who only grudgingly do the right thing. The Brave and Bold Aquaman may have cribbed his personality from Marvel's Hercules, but at least he kept me entertained.
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Wallace Sellars
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Posted: 04 September 2011 at 12:23pm | IP Logged | 5  

So Thom and Wallace, I gather that you prefer the surly Namor-clone
personality of Aquaman, as demonstrated in those early Justice League
cartoons?
---
No. I don't care for either of them.
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Chris Durnell
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Posted: 04 September 2011 at 12:31pm | IP Logged | 6  

I don't think water based heroes are inherently prone to fail, or unpopular.  Both Aquaman and Sub-Mariner have had long successful runs.  It's just that they have not been consistently published which is the same as a lot of other heroes.

I think the big danger of such character, in sofar as they are superheroes, is that it is all too easy to keep them stuck completely within the ocean environment which cuts them off from the "real world".  It's OK to make the ocean world a large part of the series, but unless such characters are engaged on the surface world, it seems more like a fantasy comic than a superhero comic.

All characters, regardless of theme, need the following:

1) An interesting supporting cast, including foils, or ordinary people

2) A numerous and diverse rogues gallery

3) Entertaining and fascinating stories

One of the things I quickly find boring are books where the only character the superhero(es) interact with are other super-powered people (which can also include things like SHIELD agents and such).  This seems to be an easy trap for writers to fall into, especially since the 1990s.  With water themed heroes, it may be even easier to have a supporting cast that is only other Atlanteans or whatever.

When JB relaunced Namor, I think a  major thing he did right was put Namor in the context of the surface world and introduced new villains.  It was solid foundation that could be built upon.

I think one problem with Namor and Aquaman is lack of a recognizable rogues gallery, a problem shared by many other heroes whose books do not last.  Especially in Namor's first series, most of his villains were basically versions of himself (strong, underwater foes) or had an underwater theme (like Dr Dorcas).  Same with Aquaman.

If there series are too survive, those rogues galleries need major overhauls with creative, original villains that are not water based, yet make sense they'd be foes of Namor at some point.  Considering Namor himself returned as a recurring foe of the Fantastic Four, I think it shows that Namor could have interesting foes far away from what we could expect of such a character.
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Brandon Scott Berthelot
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Posted: 04 September 2011 at 12:38pm | IP Logged | 7  

I really liked the conceit of the Aquaman series where San
Diego was dumped into the ocean but somehow many of the
inhabitants of the city gained the ability to live
underwater, so Aquaman became the peacekeeper/trainer of
these people.
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Andrew Hess
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Posted: 04 September 2011 at 1:23pm | IP Logged | 8  

"Punted off the book", JB? 

I thought you voluntarily left as artist, as you continued writing the book for a while. 
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Brian Floyd
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Posted: 05 September 2011 at 1:28pm | IP Logged | 9  

I've always found Namor more interesting than Aquaman. Not just because he's got more powers, but because he's a character who can be used as a hero or a villain due to his arrogance.

The problem with DC is they meddle around with Aquaman too much. He's gone through too many new looks and origin revisions (plus being replaced for a while) in the last decade plus. And I just don't believe he's a character that can sustain his own series. It speaks volumes when I think the best time I'm seen him utilized since I started reading comics was during the Justice League Detroit era.

Maybe fans just don't think the ocean is a fascinating enough or `alien' enough enviroment for comics....
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Brandon Carter
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Posted: 07 September 2011 at 4:29pm | IP Logged | 10  

I've enjoyed Aquaman at various times over the years in his own series.  Namor, I've mostly found boring as a lead feature.  I prefer to see him used as a supporting character.  One major exception to this is JB's Namor run, which was among the absolute best (to me) of the books Marvel was putting out at the time.  It also included some of the best cliffhangers and surprises.

 

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Brian Floyd
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Posted: 07 September 2011 at 6:27pm | IP Logged | 11  

I almost forgot about this:

Once had an idea for a team with an aquatic based hero who was the laughingstock of the team.....until they ran into a villain whose power is to neutralize super-powers as long as he within a certain range of them (like Marvel's Leech). The aquatic hero proceeds to trounce the bad guy because he's an alien and his powers are biological, not really super-powers. He not only breathes underwater but can also generate it and almost drowns the villain.

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Brian Hague
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Posted: 10 September 2011 at 3:25am | IP Logged | 12  

There seems to be something of an underwater renaissance going on right now as creators belatedly attempt to rehabilitate the subsea hero concept. Aquaman, Sea Guy, Marine Man, Sea Ghost... It's nice to see the pendulum swing the other way on this for awhile.

The joke of Aquaman, the useless Super-Friend, giving you tips on pool safety while his team-mates go fight Darkseid is overdone and obvious.

On his own, Aquaman can be formidable; a telepathic monarch of the seas with all of the creatures of the deep at his command. So long as he doesn't have to share the stage with Green Lantern, who can make whales five times the size of Aquaman's appear just by wishing, he's unbeatable. (That Hal. Always hogging the limelight...)

Unfortunately, for years and years, putting him next to GL is the thing everyone wanted to do with him. Or J'onn J'onzz. Or Wonder Woman. "Good thing you called us in on this, Aquaman! Amazo would've had you for lunch!" Superman observes.

"Hey, I could go for seafood myself!" Robin jokes. Much merriment ensues.

And the kid in the Peter Pan slippers and the spangly shorts laughs at the Atlantean king and strongman whose body can withstand the pressures of the Marianas Trench.

The answer to this in recent decades has been to differentiate Aquaman on the basis of temperment and savagery. Is he stronger than Superman? No, but he will impale you and your entire damned family with his harpoon if come near him... I kept waiting for that thing to sprout additional tines with a salty, undersea "Snikt!"

"You goonna laugh at Aquaman?? Aquaman goonna kill you, sucka!!"

Plus, he's King. When he kills you, it's not murder. It's a royal execution. You're welcome.

The problem with this is that while it differentiated him somewhat from his fellow Leaguers, (less and less so as time went by) it did not differentiate him from the hundred-fifty other brutal-killer-heroes out there. Well, he did look sillier (Barry Gibb in a leather fetish-bra, as someone once described him) but that wasn't helping...

So they went mystical. Replaced him with a newbie ('Cause that trick never fails) and turned him into a squid-faced thing... Yee-ahh... Best to just kick that era under the carpet with Teen Tony & Arm-Pincer Spidey and move along...

Here's the thing. The ocean is actually a fascinating place, replete with mystery, danger, and sunken sailing vessels going back millenia. There are still creatures down there we've never seen or imagined. There is tremendous potential for the future of the human species should we find methods of harvesting the oceans and tapping their vast resources.

The intrigue and storytelling potential of the ocean is sadly not served by treating its defenders like shirtless barbarian-kings and the rest of the inhabitants like easily-gulled (ha!) mobs of mideval peasantry. The subsea realms of Aquaman and Namor have to date been little more than fairy-tale kingdoms filled with uninteresting political intrigue (I do not care if Byrrah or Attuma takes over again. I really don't. Same goes for Maximus while I'm at it...) and shallow (ha, again!) romantic subplots. No one wants any of that.

I've enjoyed long runs of Aquaman stories with art by Cardy, Aparo, and Giordano. Everett's Sub-Mariner is an unparalleled favorite, but comics need to get over the image of Atlantis as a quaint ceramic castle placed in the bottom of a fishbowl.

*By the way, the Man From Atlantis series is finally available on DVD from Warner Archive. I strongly recommend the first TV movie. Very "Stranger in a Strange Land/ Man Who Fell to Earth." The second may be the worst thing I have ever seen on television... And I watch Krofft shows without flinching! Appallingly awful... Ptui!! The third and fourth improve on the second, but that says little. Overall, they're fine. Not any great shakes. Belinda Montgomery is lovely.

The production values once the series proper begins improve immensely. The stories, well, let's just say... That first TV Movie remains something extraordinary.



Edited by Brian Hague on 10 September 2011 at 3:27am
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