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Wallace Sellars
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 May 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 17707
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| Posted: 02 August 2011 at 7:19pm | IP Logged | 1
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...and Amazing Man in the All-Star Squadron.
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I would have been tempted to at least take a peek at the new JLA if he had
been included, but...
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Mike Norris
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4274
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| Posted: 02 August 2011 at 7:35pm | IP Logged | 2
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I've always like him and he usally turns up in various ideas I have for the JSA.
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Corey Morgan
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 May 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 141
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| Posted: 02 August 2011 at 7:36pm | IP Logged | 3
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I have to wonder if the government would want to test a formula designed to create Super-Soldier would test it on black men. You'd think the last thing a racist would want is a superpowered black man.
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Well, if we're going under the assumption that he's a racist, then the last thing he'd want would be to use an untested formula on a white man. He would want test subjects that were expendable, and not considered of any value to study any possible negative side effects while perfecting the formula.
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Mike Norris
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4274
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| Posted: 02 August 2011 at 7:48pm | IP Logged | 4
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Still, when it works the result is a Super Powered black man. Which has got to be "his worst nightmare". ( to paraphrase Eddie Murphy). I don't recall who was running this version of the super-soldier program. Though the parallels with Tuskegee Experiment was meant to to imply a racist angle. I can't imagine Dr Erskine taking part though.
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Corey Morgan
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 May 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 141
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| Posted: 02 August 2011 at 8:01pm | IP Logged | 5
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Well, Dr. Erskine was long dead by then, having been killed just after Steve Rogers took the original super soldier serum. The folks who picked up the program after Erskine apparently didn't share his views. Remember, Even though Bradley survived the treatment, he was one of 5 out of more than 300 black soldiers who were given the serum. The first 295 died during the original trials, and the other 4 who survived besides Bradley, died in the field. Bradley himself, was court martialed & put in prison by the US for nearly 20 years after completing his mission behind enemy lines.
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Brad Krawchuk
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 June 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 5819
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| Posted: 02 August 2011 at 8:04pm | IP Logged | 6
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On Jaime Reyes, the Blue Beetle name was probably the hook that DC needed to get people to even take a look at the character
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I disagree on the grounds that, had he not been given the Blue Beetle identity but everything else remained just so, he'd still be a modern fan-favourite and as well-known as he is outside of comics. They pushed him - like they're doing the new Aqualad - and put him in the forefront of cartoons, action-figure lines, live-action tv shows, and that's what promoted him.
If they did that with any character it would work. See Iron Man, Thor, Blade, and other B-list and C-list characters who've had successful movies made. As long as the material is well done (unlike Green Lantern, The Spirit, or other less successful treatments) and audiences are given a character they can root for, nothing else really matters.
Jaime Reyes was given the spotlight, and treated well while in it. If the same had been done for him in the guise of The Azure Ant or Cobalt Crab, and everything else had remained the same, he would be in the same place publicly as he is now under the guise of Blue Beetle... except he'd be his own character.
Likewise, if the new Aqualad was called The Hurricane or Whirlpool and had the same set of water powers and a different costume, he'd still be his own man and not a derivative of Aquaman. Garth could still be Aqualad, or Aqualad could be the name Arthur took when he was young (like Superboy), and the new character would be set apart.
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Kip Lewis
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 March 2011
Posts: 2880
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| Posted: 02 August 2011 at 8:50pm | IP Logged | 7
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Garth hasn't been Aqualad for over decade and the name has been
unused since then.Here's the thing; Spider-man isn't tablescrapes, he's the main course.
Making a new Spider-man Black has more meaning than even a new
Black hero, because it is Spider-man. If the plan is to kill Spider-man
anyway and replace him in the Ultimate Universe, then why not a
Black/Hispanic man. Do they need another white Spider-man who
isn't Peter Parker? And from what I've read, African-American community has claimed
Spider-man for years, because they find him not only relatable, but his
full body costume allowed kids to pretend he was Black. Nothing
about him screamed white, until he took off the mask.
Edited by Kip Lewis on 02 August 2011 at 8:52pm
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Corey Morgan
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Joined: 04 May 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 141
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| Posted: 02 August 2011 at 9:27pm | IP Logged | 8
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Where did you read that? I've been African American for 40 years, and I've never heard such a thing.
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Brad Krawchuk
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 June 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 5819
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| Posted: 02 August 2011 at 9:43pm | IP Logged | 9
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Here's the thing; Spider-man isn't tablescrapes, he's the main course.
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No, creating a whole new hero and building him into something as positive and popular as Spider-Man over a few decades would be a main course. This is table scraps - the new character is just getting what was left over when Peter Parker was done with it.
It doesn't happen overnight. It doesn't even always happen in a positive and character building way. But a character CAN be created and CAN become a huge pop culture success without having a Bat, a Spider, or an S-Shield on his chest.
Just ask Wolverine or the Punisher, created in the 1970s. Or Optimus Prime and Snake Eyes, created in the 1980s. Or how about Sonic the Hedgehog from the 1990s, with his over 200+ consecutive comic issues and worldwide fame from video games that easily rivals (if not outright exceeds) the fame of characters we love like Deadman, Blue Beetle, Mister Miracle, Black Canary, Plastic Man, or Beast Boy.
Making Spider-Man black is a stunt - it's temporary, even if it lasts 5 years or 10 years. Creating a whole new character that will still be popular thirty years from now or sixty years from now... THAT'S real change. No matter what this new guy does - Miles Morales will always be second fiddle to Peter Parker. He'll never get credit for anything - the name Spider-Man will get the credit and that name will always be more closely and popularly associated with Peter Parker.
It's like hockey, where everyone always says the Hot New Rookie is "the Next Gretzky" or in baseball where someone's always trying to beat Babe Ruth, Roger Maris, Sammy Sosa, or Mark Maquire. Kobe Bryant isn't the new Michael Jordan, Sidney Crosby isn't the new Gretzky, no matter how much they were compared the former stars when they entered their respective leagues. They eventually got over that hype and became their own players.
Miles Morales? He's Spider-Man. That's great. He'll never be his own man or his own character though, because he'll never be able to escape being Spider-Man, and he'll always be in the shadow of Parker.
Edited by Brad Krawchuk on 02 August 2011 at 9:44pm
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Andrew W. Farago
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Joined: 19 July 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 4079
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| Posted: 02 August 2011 at 11:37pm | IP Logged | 10
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No, creating a whole new hero and building him into something as positive and popular as Spider-Man over a few decades would be a main course. This is table scraps - the new character is just getting what was left over when Peter Parker was done with it.
Your recent examples of characters that became huge are a pair of characters who debuted around 1974, tie-ins to two of the most popular toy lines of the 1980s, and the flagship character from a major video game company. So yeah, it sounds like it would be perfectly simple to name this new guy Bug-Man and make him just as big a character as the Super Mario Bros.
And maybe Miles Morales will be around 10 or 20 years from now. Who knows? Maybe he'll cross over into mainstream media and become a popular figure in his own right. Maybe he'll get canceled three months from now. Either way, I'm interested to see how it all plays out.
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Tim Farnsworth
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Joined: 01 July 2010
Posts: 817
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| Posted: 02 August 2011 at 11:56pm | IP Logged | 11
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I lost my enthusiasm for the Ultimate Marvel Universe many years ago, but it was always presented as a place that could be very different from the Marvel Universe. To me, this just seems like the logical extension of that.
It's a universe where Spider-Man could potentially die, and if in some way his legacy continues, why should I get worked up about what his successor looks like?
I think if Marvel dropped the ball here, it's in having so little to say about the actual character for the initial news announcements. Means they're going to focus on his race without being able to get into character and story, and I think that's fueling a lot of overly reactionary responses. I suspect Bendis is going to put a lot into making him likeable, though, and when he can start talking about that in interviews we can move away from this strict evaluation based on skin color.
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Chris Durnell
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Joined: 26 February 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 1234
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| Posted: 03 August 2011 at 12:12am | IP Logged | 12
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Corey Morgan wrote:
| A more apt comparison would be the Tuskegee Syphilis Experiments where the govt. intentionally injected syphilis into nearly 400 unknowing black subjects, and studied the results over time, much like what happened to Bradley and his teammates. |
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I know Brandon already mentioned this, but I wanted to highlight that this is incorrect information. The government did not inject syphilis into anyone, intentionally or not.
The subjects of the Tuskegee Syphilis Experiments already had syphilis. The controversy was not over them being given a disease, but that the study was not done properly within the guidelines of medical ethics. The victims were not informed about their actual medical condition nor were they properly treated. This is obviously bad and scandalous, but at no point were uninfected people "given" the disease. If you heard differently, you were told wrong.
I know that this story was given by the creators when TRUTH came out as justification for their depiction, but they were wrong about it and drew the wrong conclusions about it. It was one of the reasons I quickly stopped reading the series.
Strangely, I wouldn't be so upset if someone produced a current story about a rogue part of the government doing it because it would be obviously fiction, but I was very upset at what I considered to be falsification of history by implying the US government did something it did not do. Since it neither accurately depicted the situation with the Tuskegee Experiment nor added anything worthwhile to the Captain America mythos, I saw no redeeming value to it.
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Topic Closed)
