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Johan Vikberg
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Posted: 05 August 2011 at 8:40am | IP Logged | 1  

 John Byrne wrote:
And eventually, decades after Stan wrote that caption, we would find the likes of Alan Moore giving us an "imaginary story" -- a longtime staple at DC, tho at that time not seen for a while -- and RIGHT THERE IN THE STORY asking "…but aren't they all?" The printed page equivalent of Luke Skywalker stopping in the middle of the Death Star attack, turning to the audience and saying "Don't worry! I'm not in any danger! I'm just an actor, sitting on a soundstage, with a big green screen behind me. None of this is REAL!!"

I feel something like that about this whole business of having several versions of characters ... the mere existence of an ”Ultimate Spider-Man” takes away from the regular Spider-Man (takes away from any version of the character, really, himself included) by making more explicit the fact that none of it is real. That the Spider-Man I’m buying a book about might just as well have been some other Spider-Man. That it doesn’t matter. That they’re all imaginary stories.


Edited by Johan Vikberg on 05 August 2011 at 8:42am
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Francesco Vanagolli
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Posted: 05 August 2011 at 9:51am | IP Logged | 2  

JB explained exactly what I meant (except for the Seinfeld part: I never watched the show).

Glenn, when I started university there were some limited partecipation courses. You had to pass a test to enter.
In at least one of those, there were... 225 places available, I think. PLUS 20 (?) for foreigner students.

This is what I call humiliation: being accepted as a "different category". Maybe there was a black student who got the highest grade of the class... and he wasn't in the first list, but in the second one.


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John Byrne
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Posted: 05 August 2011 at 10:05am | IP Logged | 3  

I feel something like that about this whole business of having several versions of characters ... the mere existence of an ”Ultimate Spider-Man” takes away from the regular Spider-Man…

••

The title kinda emphasizes that, doesn't it? This is the ULTIMATE Spider-Man. All others, including the original, are but lesser beasts.

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Roger A Ott II
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Posted: 05 August 2011 at 11:44am | IP Logged | 4  

 Kip Lewis wrote:
"Just...tell stories"? Nowadays, nobody would believe it if you did. Everybody (yes, I'm using hyperbole to make the point) mind-reads every decision a writer or company makes and assumes the writer is doing whatever as a stunt or if it's not big, they say the writer is lazy. And so on.


As much as I like to wail on Brian Bendis for some of his stories, I felt he at least attempted to tell an evolving story when he planted the seeds for Secret Invasion several years before the "event" itself, revealing hints here and there and piquing the curiosity. That made it stand out above the others, to me at least.

While I had a few quibbles with the execution of the story as a whole, the basic idea of Secret Invasion was probably one of the better stories Marvel has produced in the last decade.


Edited by Roger A Ott II on 05 August 2011 at 11:45am
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John Byrne
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Posted: 05 August 2011 at 11:48am | IP Logged | 5  

… I felt he at least attempted to tell an evolving story when he planted the seeds for Secret Invasion several years before the "event" itself…

••

Wasn't that in FANTASTIC FOUR 2?

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David Ferguson
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Posted: 05 August 2011 at 1:28pm | IP Logged | 6  

I think the Black Panther, perhaps inadvertently, made the point that Africa could be in a better place if they had the resources or those resources hadn't been pillaged.

It reminds me of an episode of an Irish TV show where the presenter was interviewing a member of the Klan. The Klansman was going on about how the whiteman brought civilisation to the black savages in Africa and all that kind of crap. Then the presenter asked him about the Pyramids. The Klansman said "I don't know where you studied your geography but the Pyramids are in Egypt"! The presenter said "Yes, but Egypt is in Africa!" 

The puzzling look on the klansman's face was priceless! 
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Glenn Brown
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Posted: 05 August 2011 at 3:06pm | IP Logged | 7  

JB and Francesco, I get your respective points.  Thanks for clarifying.

For years, it seemed that there was a sentiment amongst Marvel (JB, if you recall please correct me: was it Chris Clarement who said this?) that there was no one "good" enough to be a suitor for Storm.  THAT  comment kind of rubbed some folks wrong because it presumes, on some level, that either there were no (presumably black) characters in the MU who were suitable besides the Black Panther nor could one be created to fill the role.  I'm sure Mr. Claremont meant no harm, he was referring to Ororo's regal nature and incredible strength...but it isn't an unfair inference to make.  But people rejected the notion of her and T'Challa actually hooking up because it was too easy.  Like in a classroom where there are only two black children...whenever the class paired off, it was assumed that those two would be together, even if they had nothing in common or did not like each other.  They were being identified solely by their complexions and nothing else.

THAT mentality provokes a much stronger reaction from me.  That, I do find insulting and demeaning.

So, when Marvel went ahead and married off Storm and the Panther it felt like a very disengenuous, patronizing stunt and while I felt no humiliation I did feel a sense of racism in the decision to have author Eric Jerome Dickey, noted for absolutely ZERO comic book work, involved with the project.  I'm all for more opportunities being available for black creators; I'm one of them.  But that just smacked of a disturbing attitude that really turned me off and made me question the mindset of TPTB at Marvel.

When I saw black female fans of Mr. Dickey's work who otherwise had no interest in comic books, same as with the Obama cameo in a subsequent issue of Spider-Man...black (and other ethnically-diverse) folks who were more civilian than fan arrive in the LCS and buy up price-jacked copies of the issues where these stunts occurred...I didn't feel humiliated but I felt a sense of anger and manipulation.  So filtered through that recollection I can see where one might indeed feel as Francesco described.

Maybe there is more to this new Spider-Man thing than I first realized.

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Brad Krawchuk
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Posted: 05 August 2011 at 4:42pm | IP Logged | 8  

The Ultimate Spider-Man cartoon goes on the air next year... with white kid Peter Parker under the mask.

If Marvel had actual testicles, they'd make THAT Spider-Man black/hispanic. Seriously, why not make the series about a post-Parker Spider-Man? That could be the origin episode - Spider-Man dying then the new kid donning the suit. Kind of like Batman Beyond. 

But, since it will be seen in MILLIONS of homes across North America and the world, I guess it's not the appropriate place to tell that story. Let's stick it in a series that barely 75k people will ever read, maybe, and pat ourselves on the back for being "diverse"! Go Marvel!
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Michael Todd
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Posted: 06 August 2011 at 10:17am | IP Logged | 9  

Or better yet, don't create a new Spider-Man at all.
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Brian Hague
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Posted: 06 August 2011 at 10:44am | IP Logged | 10  

As far back as the Shooter era, there have been rumors of, and thereafter calls for, a post-Peter Parker Spider-Man. The rumor back then was that Marvel, fearless proponent of Change and Bold Storytelling that it was, was going to kill Peter in an appropriately-epic manner and then replace him with responsibility-stricken, Army veteran Flash Thompson. (Well, Flash is Venom now... Maybe he's slowly working his way up.) How they were going to reconcile his time in Vietnam, I have no idea, but since that rumor, there has been an uneasy undercurrent in Fandom of people who feel they were "ripped off" in not getting this promised development, people who might feel that Marvel "chickened out."

Bendis is the right age to at least be aware of this feeling. In any case, the basic idea is nothing new. "The Spidey Suit doesn't need Peter any more than the ring needs Hal. Or Kyle. Or John. Or Guy... Let's get some surprises happening here! Let's rock the boat a little!"

Me, I still can't get over the idea that this "bold, exciting" development is taking place over in the Ultimate Universe, the one given of which is that it will never, ever, ever cross over with the Mainstream Marvel U. Without meaning to, I'm sure, Marvel has "segregated" their new Spider-Man from the get-go, preventing him from meeting all of the other heroes the general public assumes are his peers. Maybe the barrier between the two universes will finally fall as a result of all this.

"What does Thor think about the new Spidey?" readers may ask.
"Well, Thor himself doesn't know anything about it. It happened in a different reality, y'see, but the Thor there is cool with it."
"How does the Fantastic Four feel about having a new guy on their team in Peter's costume?"
"Well, now, y'see, that isn't the same Spidey, really, or the same FF, but if the FF in the Ultimate Universe had Spidey on their team, they'd be fine with the change. Miles is a good guy...Really, one FF or the other makes no difference..."
"So, these different guys the new Spidey hangs out with are separate from the real ones, but just as good... Separate, but... Hmm..."

I don't believe it's intentional, this "segregation," and as I say, I hope they'll finally take down the wall between the two universes as a result, and acknowledge the Ultimate Universe as the faux, "edgier" Earth-2 concept it has always been.



Edited by Brian Hague on 06 August 2011 at 10:48am
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Emery Calame
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Posted: 06 August 2011 at 12:42pm | IP Logged | 11  

It was the Ultimate universe that shit out the Marvel Zombies concept and did so under the pretense of the REAL FF contacting the Ultimate FF. Yuck.


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David Spurlock
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Posted: 06 August 2011 at 4:58pm | IP Logged | 12  

I could be wrong, but I seem to recall reading something back when the Ultimate universe was first coming out. I seem to recall that there were talks of making Spider-Man a Black character or that there wasn't any reason why he couldn't be a Black character. Perhaps this is Bendis' way of getting away with having both a White Spider-Man and a Black Spider-Man, not that makes any more acceptable.
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