What made that different from virtually all that has followed? Simple, really. It was a STORY. Despite all the behind-the-scenes turmoil, it was a STORY that flowed organically from what had gone before. And, perhaps even more important, it wasn't PLANNED. It didn't happen because Chris and I sat down and said "What can we do to draw attention to this book? What can we do to sell some extra copies?" Instead, we built our STORY one day at a time, one issue at a time, over a span of a couple of years.

***

Your post, JB, hits the nail right on the head when it comes to why I can't stand Marvel comics anymore. When I found Marvel, in the mid80s, I found a world that seemed real to me. At the time, I didn't know how it had come to be that way but it really felt like a real place that had evolved naturally and was still doing so. I later, when I learned something more about its history, came to understand that Lee, Kirby, and Ditko had planted seeds and let it grow, not planning too much, not declaring that they were creating a "universe," but just telling good stories. And eventually the garden was tended by others like you and the Buscemas and Stern and Thomas and the Simonsons and Claremont and too many others to name here and it continued to grow naturally.

Now it all feels fake and most of that fakeness comes from the transparent forcedness of the whole thing. Everything has to be declared now. "Look at us! We've got the balls to kill off Captain America! (or the Human Torch or Ultimate Spider-Man or whoever)" "Look at us! We're champions of diversity!" and "Look at us! We're having an EVENT called Civil War (or whatever this year's big mess is called)"

Reboots, reimaginings, renumberings, death and revivials, etc etc etc.

Just shut up and tell stories!

It's sad. Really sad.   

If "the Death of Phoenix" was written during the internet era,
everyone involved would be accused of all manner of negativity,
probably starting with "Marvel/Clarmont/Byrne doesn't like strong
women so they killed Jean because she wasn't weak, subservient..."

Edited by Kip Lewis on 04 August 2011 at 5:59am

••

Here you touch on another big problem in comics today, and, yes, another one that springs directly from too many fans-turned-pro in the mix. (Practically the whole mix, now, in fact!)

When I was a kid, I WORRIED every time Luthor caught Superman in a kryptonite death trap. Even if that was the lead story in an issue that had two or three other stories in it! I worried, because I BELIEVED. And, later, as I have noted elsewhere more than once, when Stan and Jack introduced the Blue Area on the Moon, in FANTASTIC FOUR 13, that night, when the Moon rose, I went out in the back yard and LOOKED FOR THE BLUE AREA. Because I BELIEVED.

Famously, Richard Donner, directing SUPERMAN - THE MOVIE, put up signs around the soundstage reading "Think Verisimilitude!" That's what comics, especially superhero comics, used to be all about. A tactic agreement between the audience and the creators -- "We all know this isn't real, but we are going to pretend, at least until we get to the last page, that it is."

But even back when comics were read by millions, and most of those readers were kids, there were still some who refused to "play the game". "Superman isn't going to die," said one of my friends when I was around 11 years old. "They have to publish the next issue." This was a thought that had simply never passed thru my brain. The whole idea of these comics as PRODUCT was alien to me. I was simply too naive -- or perhaps, I was simply not cynical enough.

By the time I got into the business, cynical was well on its way to being what it was all about. The "wink" to the audience, which had always been there, had taken a "dark" turn. I might even point to a specific moment when it started down that path, at least for me. This, as many of you will recognize, is the opening caption in the first story in AMAZING FANTASY 15:

I was about 13 years old when I read that for the first time. I was approaching the outer edge of what was then considered the target audience. But, even without having the words, then, to express it, I felt something was WRONG with that caption. It made me vaguely… uncomfortable that the comic book was speaking directly to me like that -- and saying something disparaging about superheroes!!

Of course, that caption was pure Stan Lee, and in years to come we would see more -- much more! -- of that rooty-tooty style of his. Unfortunately, others, especially fans, would try to pick up on that style, would try to talk and think the same way about superheroes, and the result would come off as diminishing, contemptuous -- cynical.

And eventually, decades after Stan wrote that caption, we would find the likes of Alan Moore giving us an "imaginary story" -- a longtime staple at DC, tho at that time not seen for a while -- and RIGHT THERE IN THE STORY asking "…but aren't they all?" The printed page equivalent of Luke Skywalker stopping in the middle of the Death Star attack, turning to the audience and saying "Don't worry! I'm not in any danger! I'm just an actor, sitting on a soundstage, with a big green screen behind me. None of this is REAL!!"

The innocence was dying -- being killed, really. Because comics had come more and more into the hands of those who no longer wanted to "Think Verisimilitude". Who instead wanted to wink, not at the readers in general, not in a "fun" way, but in a deprecating way to those, like them, who were too old to be reading these comics, too old for the fun and the innocence. Who would not just snigger behind their hands about what Reed and Susan Richards' sex life might be like -- but who wanted to find ways to SHOW us. Who wanted, at every opportunity, not to carry us along in the fantasy of these worlds, but to nudge us in the ribs and point out how STUPID it all was, really. And we all KNOW that, right? Because we -- ESPECIALLY the writers and artists and editors -- are just so much BETTER than these silly comic books.

Which are really all about stunts and fake events, because, hey, who cares? They're not REAL.

And yet back when MILLIONS were reading, WITHOUT any of those stunts and fake events, a whole lot of us were at least prepared to PRETEND they were real. If only for a little while.

I had an experience this past year that showed me that it's still possible, if only briefly, to get lost in that world again and find the magic that used to be found in superhero comics...if we allow ourselves to go there.

I was reading a volume of ESSENTIAL SPIDER-MAN,  a story from the Lee/Romita era. I got so into it and was so carried away by the good storytelling that i found myself actually WORRIED when Peter and Gwen, walking along a city street, are nearly crushed by a truck! (the story from Amazing Spider-Man 83). There I was, a 34-year old man who KNOWS intellectually that Spider-Man is still being published more than 40 years later, who KNOWS that the character of Gwen will live for another 40 issues, who KNOWS that they will not die in that scene, who KNOWS that there are still a hundred pages left in that very book, but still afraid for a moment that the hero and/or his girlfriend might be crushed by that truck!

I can still go there (and the credit for that must go to the artist and writer) and, more importantly, I WANT to be able to go there. Otherwise, what's the point?   

••

Doubt it.

As Stan has never been shy about admitting, he had reached a point in his career where he was really tired of writing comics. He wanted to go write novels and screenplays. He wanted to be Stanley Leiber again, and stop hiding his light under the bushel of a pen name he'd created specifically to "protect" his reputation as a writer.

He was EMBARRASSED to be writing comics, and I am sure he saw superheroes as a step even further down. Remember, issue 15 was the one where AMAZING ADULT FANTASY lost the middle word of its title!

But, of course, as Stan tells it, his wife Joan, tired of his moping, challenged him to go write the kind of comics HE wanted to write, instead of doing what he considered mindless pandering. And the FF and Spider-Man were among his earliest attempts to do just that.

But the loathing lingered. At least for a while!

JB, once again you have shone a spotlight on the very problems that have continued to plague the comic industry.  I am so sick of these writers, artists and editors who value "media savvy" above almost all else.  They have absolutely driven me from a hobby that I have enjoyed for a majority of my lifetime. 

As to the new "Spider-Man", just stop it. 

A few inviolate rules for the comic industry:

Clark Kent is Superman.

Bruce Wayne is Batman.

Diana is Wonder Woman.

Peter Parker is Spider-Man.

These four are the absolute icons of American comic books.  DC has three major icons and Marvel has one. *

Learn it.  Accept it. Now, go make good stories about them.

Peace.

*I know everyone has their favorites, but these icons have stood the test of time and are synonymous with their respective companies. 

Brevoort once again proves he only lives in the bubble named Marvel Comics. I truly hope he never loses his job with Marvel. He believes the company hype so much it would crush his world if the company ever let him go. I'll be the bigger man and step aside so that Brevoort can maintain his delusions about Marvel.................on second thought, screw him.

Live in the real world like the rest of us. A black Spider-Man is not a show of diversity in the Marvel Universe. It is a publicity stunt. If Marvel wanted to really shake things up, why not have the balls to make it the real Spider-Man? They are using an alternate universe. Which in the end means nothing in the almost fifty year history of Spider-Man. In the end this Spider-Man still holds a back seat to his white counter part. What Marvel is trying to do is garner good will without really having to make a major character in their universe a minority. They are also trying to fool the general public into buying a book they think is the real Spider-Man. The average non-comic book fan will not understand there is a difference.

How about Marvel use their PR department to promote a new Luke Cage series? Or Storm, or Northstar, or a new minority character. How about creating something new, rather than treading over old ground and calling it new?