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Michael Todd Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 07 September 2009 Location: United States Posts: 4115
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Posted: 23 June 2011 at 7:52pm | IP Logged | 1
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Has anyone noticed how in the early Dr. Strange stories Ditko gave the good Doctor an oriental look? I was wondering if perhaps the Doctor was originally envisioned as being a far-eastern character like his mentor the Anicient One?
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Greg Loboda Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 September 2006 Location: United States Posts: 64
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Posted: 23 June 2011 at 8:31pm | IP Logged | 2
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I'm not sure Ditko drew Strange's facial features very consistently in the beginning, but I agree that he had an Oriental flavor about him initially.
Not long before Dr. Strange's first appearance, Kirby created a proto-hero named Dr. Droom in Amazing Adventures #1, which ran just 6 issues in 1961 (I have copies of the originals, and they're a blast to read). Droom, like Strange, was a Westerner who stumbled across Oriental mystics in the mountains, and was granted similar powers. In Droom's case, he literally was transformed into a person with Asian features, yellow skin and all.
Perhaps Ditko drew upon this idea, at first.
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Jesus Garcia Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 10 April 2007 Location: Canada Posts: 2414
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Posted: 23 June 2011 at 8:35pm | IP Logged | 3
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His appearance certainly suggests he wasn't caucasian. Strange doesn't look precisely asian, here. It could be that his appearance was inspired by the earlier Dr. Druid. As he looks more like a visitor from an alternate Ditko-type dimension, I suspect that the concept might originally have been an inter-dimensional alien visitor especially trained to protect the Earth-dimension from menaces invading from his home dimension. The Stranger-in-a-strange-land concept is fascinating, and might have suggested the character's name. Pure speculation on my part, of course.
Edited by Jesus Garcia on 23 June 2011 at 8:37pm
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Robert Cosgrove Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 January 2005 Location: United States Posts: 1710
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Posted: 23 June 2011 at 8:40pm | IP Logged | 4
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3 or 4 stories in, Ditko and Lee got around to doing Strange's origin, where it was revealed he was a Western surgeon who had travelled to the orient in search for a cure for his damaged hands. That story seemed to mark the end of the oriental look, perhaps because Lee and Ditko now knew who the character was.
Michael, the shot you run is notable for a few other features, among them the amulet, which soon became square, only to be replaced later on by an amulet much like the one in the picture, and the gloves, which soon lost their spots, perhaps because Ditko gave up inking the feature for a time. By the time he returned to inking, he didn't put them in either. Perhaps he'd forgotten, as I doubt he ever bothered to pencil them in. Or perhaps, as JB has opined with the decreasing blacks on Spider-man's uniform, it was a time saving measure. In any event, I always liked the spots, and a few of Strange's later artists, obviously Ditko fans, took care to include them.
Edited by Robert Cosgrove on 23 June 2011 at 8:40pm
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Brian Hunt Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 5178
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Posted: 23 June 2011 at 8:50pm | IP Logged | 5
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Has anyone noticed how in the early Dr. Strange stories Ditko gave the good Doctor an oriental look?
The correct term would be Asian. Things are oriental, people are Asian. Minor pet peeve. Carry on.
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Mike Norris Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 4274
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Posted: 23 June 2011 at 8:56pm | IP Logged | 6
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I suppose if they wanted Marvel could retcon Strange as being part Asian and go with that look as the "Standard"
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Gary Olson Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 11 September 2008 Location: Australia Posts: 382
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Posted: 23 June 2011 at 9:28pm | IP Logged | 7
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I was pleased when JB included Strange's Ditko-era "glove spots" in the doctor's brief cameo in his(JB's) Galactus Trilogy. When you think about it, the spots aren't just for the wonky effect... they're good for character identification, especially if Doc(and perhaps one or more other characters) is throwing a zap or whatever from off-panel.
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Brad Brickley Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 29 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 8287
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Posted: 23 June 2011 at 11:15pm | IP Logged | 8
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Asia is kind of a big place with lots of different peoples. Asian doesn't really describe it I think. East Asian? Chinese? Japanese? Kazakh? See what I mean.
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Knut Robert Knutsen Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 September 2006 Posts: 7374
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Posted: 23 June 2011 at 11:21pm | IP Logged | 9
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"The correct term would be Asian. " No, the correct term would be "Mongoloid". Strange's slightly "slanted" eyes are a graphic representation of a particular shape of the skin folds around the eye, that is most often associated with east-asian population groups, radiating out from Mongolia. Which gives name to the third major race-classification (Caucasian, African, Mongoloid). However, the Mongoloid eye folds are also found in "White people". The small (about 200 thousand) but genetically distinct Northern European (Norway, Sweden, Finland, Russia) population group called the "Sami" have this as one of their distinguishing characteristics. For an example, look at Renee Zellweger's eyes (She's "Sami" on her mother's side). Similar types of Mongoloid eye folds, albeit to a moderate degree, can sometimes be found in Eastern Europeans. Like Hungarians (which I believe is where Ditko's family came from).
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Mike Norris Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 4274
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Posted: 23 June 2011 at 11:32pm | IP Logged | 10
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QUOTE:
Asia is kind of a big place with lots of different peoples. Asian doesn't really describe it I think. East Asian? Chinese? Japanese? Kazakh? See what I mean. |
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So's the "Orient".
QUOTE:
Which gives name to the third major race-classification (Caucasian, African, Mongoloid). |
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Shouldn't that middle one be "Negroid"
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Brad Krawchuk Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 June 2006 Location: Canada Posts: 5819
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Posted: 23 June 2011 at 11:35pm | IP Logged | 11
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For an example, look at Renee Zellweger's eyes (She's "Sami" on her mother's side).
---
I can't. She's been hideously disfigured by Botox and (probably) plastic surgery.
Also, Knut, while I no doubt believe you're correct in your descriptions as per Norwegian customs, for the most part here in Canada 'Mongoloid' has a certain racially insensitive vibe to it. I've only ever noticed the term used by elderly people, and then usually with some undertone of disdain or condescension for the person or group they're discussing. Someone from China, Japan, Korea, Mongolia, etc would simply be called "Asian."
To Brad B's point, it's similar to how a person from Norway, England, France, Germany, Russia, Ireland, or Canada would be said to be "of European descent" or "white" even though those lands are vast and include a similar variety of peoples as Asia.
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Knut Robert Knutsen Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 September 2006 Posts: 7374
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Posted: 24 June 2011 at 12:32am | IP Logged | 12
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"Mongoloid" (aside from any racist considerations), became a pejorative partly because it was also used to describe the characteristic eye shape of people with Down's syndrome. So the word "Mongoloid" (and it's shorter form "Mongo") was used to convey the same pejorative meaning as the word "retard". I think it is far better to reclaim the word and shame those who misuse it rather than abandon a word that describes at least 2 billion people. But in describing facial features, one still uses the words "caucasian", "negroid" (I stand corrected) and "mongoloid". "Asian" means absolutely nothing when describing a person's appearance. It covers Russians, Arabs, Jews, Persians, Indians, Chinese, Japanese and Indonesian et al. Asians can be "caucasian", "negroid" or "mongoloid". I suppose "Asian" has become code for "mongoloid" the same way "African" (or in some ridiculously inappropriate cases: "African American") has become code for "negroid". But there is more crass over-simplification and subtle racism in those inaccurate code words than there is in the original terms, despite the unfortunate corruption of the word "mongoloid".
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