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John Byrne
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Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
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Posted: 16 June 2011 at 9:54am | IP Logged | 1  

Yeah -- I thought his math was off, there!

And, of course, all those covers do not, ah, cover the near constant REFERENCES to Jean and Phoenix. Seemed sometimes as if the characters could not get thru half a page without some memory.

One that particularly bugged me, mentioned before, was when I did a Wendigo-eye-view of Kurt as the monster approached him, unbeknownst to him. I included a color note that the panels should all be red, which Chris also read, and wrote as a sunset -- the colors of which then "reminded" Kurt of Phoenix!

ANY excuse!!

The worst offense, mind you, did not include Phoenix on panel. That was when Chris included an "editorial comment" in X-MEN, on my story in which the FF and Avengers and others join together to save the life of Galactus. Galactus had become a particularly big stone in Chris' craw. Why did Phoenix have to die, but Galactus doesn't?? he would demand to know. The answer "Galactus is not evil, Phoenix was" was not good enough. So he snuck that scene into an issue of X-MEN, where Lilandra confronts and threatens Reed and Sue (in their bedroom, no less!). The scene was NOT shown to the FF office. We knew nothing about it until the book was published.

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Robert Bradley
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Posted: 16 June 2011 at 9:56am | IP Logged | 2  

I think Cockrum's contributions are still a bit under-appreciated.  I love his work from the '70s and he was the reason I bought GS X-Men #1 and gave the new X-Men a try.

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Brad Hague
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Posted: 16 June 2011 at 12:34pm | IP Logged | 3  

Thanks for the reply JB!

I do find it less than forthright for Chris to say now that it was the wrong thing to do after all he had done to try to keep Phoenix around.  I suspect he his mostly upset that the resurrection didn't occur as HE plotted it.

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Tim O Neill
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Posted: 16 June 2011 at 6:53pm | IP Logged | 4  


Mark H:  "It's interesting to sense the weight of later days affecting his talk of the past. He talks of his work with Dave trying to figure out who Wolverine is, but I've certainly heard that they had little interest in the
character at the time they first had to work on him.

There's no denying that deciding to make Wolverine's claws a part of the man instead of the costume was a key decision-- and having Wolverine be very private about his past. But apart from that there's little of
what we think of as core to Wolverine added between GSX#1 and UXM#108 when JB came along. And Dave tried a lot of quirky things that kind of dropped away once he left.

With the giant success of this character, it would be nice to have people acknowledge the importance of JB's contributions to his development."

****

I agree - it's unfair that JB saved this character from being taken out, and now doesn't get properly acknowledged.  I think Marvel in general is trying to minimize JB's role and influence from his time there. 

But the worst was Shooter's account of Dark Phoenix, in which he cut out JB's role completely and just regulated JB to calling him up insisting he can't do this. When it was JB's idea in the first place!

I want that second omnibus to be printed so people are reminded how awful those post JB issues were.  It was so disappointing as a kid to see that title fall so far creatively.  And I remember being excited by Cockrum returning - I had some of the old issues and that seemed like the best possible scenario to have him there.  The art looked good, but the stories were just dreadful.  I can't imagine how bad they would be if I tried to read them today.


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Shawn Kane
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Posted: 16 June 2011 at 8:00pm | IP Logged | 5  

I don't consider the post-JB run awful. I consider the Byrne/Claremont X-Men the essential comics in my collection but I can't say that I disliked the X-Men after JB left. The second Cockrum run had some high points and there were some really good Paul Smith issues. JRjr's run was probably the last of the issues that I really enjoyed. In retrospect, I could have dropped the X-Men after the Secret Wars II crossover when they fought Sentinels in San Francisco and Wolverine popped his claws in Rachel but I continued to follow the comic thinking that I enjoyed it. It had changed too much from the team that I'd been reading years earlier.

My retrospective problems with Chris Claremont's X-Men post JB:

-Writing Cyclops out of the book

-Turning former enemies into X-Men

-Having to overhaul the team every so often (mainly from 86ish to 90)

-Writing Xavier out of the book

-Keeping a powerless Storm on the team

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Joe Hollon
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Posted: 16 June 2011 at 8:44pm | IP Logged | 6  

I think if you read about the first 25-30 issues of X-MEN, skip ahead a little and read the Neal Adams issues...follow that up with JB's THE HIDDEN YEARS...then read the "All-New, All-Different" X-Men until JB leaves the book and you'll have about all the X-Men comics that matter. 
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Casey Sager
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Posted: 16 June 2011 at 9:19pm | IP Logged | 7  

Interesting first part...and what an interesting site. I've read several of the other interviews already. Thanks to the OP for posting the link...great site.

 

 

 

Casey

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Joel Biske
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Posted: 16 June 2011 at 9:19pm | IP Logged | 8  

Terry often describes himself as a "Tracer". Aside from adding zip-a-tone shading here and there, he pretty much followed what I drew.
---

Terry is a great example of how much technique brings to a page. If you've ever seen a xerox of the pencils of pretty much anything he's inked, he pretty much does trace over every line there... no changing, maybe a bit of line weight in his older stuff, but look at all the character his "tracing" has.
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Jason Larouse
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Posted: 16 June 2011 at 9:46pm | IP Logged | 9  


 QUOTE:
I want that second omnibus to be printed so people are reminded how awful those post JB issues were.  It was so disappointing as a kid to see that title fall so far creatively.  And I remember being excited by Cockrum returning - I had some of the old issues and that seemed like the best possible scenario to have him there.  The art looked good, but the stories were just dreadful.  I can't imagine how bad they would be if I tried to read them today.


IMO only the first few issues are really bad. It starts to turn around with the Magneto issue (150) and after awhile it gets consistently good again. I love the Bill Seinkiewicz Dracula issues too.
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James Revilla
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Posted: 17 June 2011 at 1:19am | IP Logged | 10  

You mean he could use FF without asking you or the editor and that was ok?

Edited by James Revilla on 17 June 2011 at 1:20am
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Tim O Neill
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Posted: 17 June 2011 at 8:42am | IP Logged | 11  



Jason L:  "IMO only the first few issues are really bad. It starts to turn around with the Magneto issue (150) and after awhile it gets consistently good again. I love the Bill Seinkiewicz Dracula issues too"

****

I quit the title during the Cockrum run and never went back.  As a kid, I didn't have the money nor the patience to stick with that.  I'm surprised I stayed as long as I did - it was the power of the earlier issues that kept me hopeful.  I have checked out trades over the years and I do like what they were doing later - as I got older I saw Chris Claremont could be good when he is on the right team.  But the key here is that I was a kid and they lost my interest.  On its most fundamental level, a comic has to work for kids.  And they lost me at a time when I felt very, very close to those characters.  I still feel close to those characters.  They had a huge impact on me.

But even as a kid, it was pretty obvious what was going on even though I didn't have the internet - JB was the only artist I followed who had a "co-plotter" title, and when he left X-Men, the book became unreadable.  While the book he started writing immediately after, Fantastic Four, became the greatest reading experience each and every month.  I would have followed JB just for the art, but when I realized he was the brain behind those X-Men issues, I was sold.  I didn't know what a "co-plotter" did, but FF proved it was pretty damn essential.

Did you guys ID artists and writers you liked when you were in your pre-teens and teens?  As far back as I could learn to read, I recognized that a Chuck Jones cartoon was worth ten cartoons by other directors.  I think my IDing artists started with Warner Bros shorts and translated into comics.
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Tim O Neill
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Posted: 17 June 2011 at 8:45am | IP Logged | 12  



Joe H:  "I think if you read about the first 25-30 issues of X-MEN, skip ahead a little and read the Neal Adams issues...follow that up with JB's THE HIDDEN YEARS...then read the "All-New, All-Different" X-Men until JB leaves the book and you'll have about all the X-Men comics that matter. "

***

I could not have put it better - well said, Joe.



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