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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 134111
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| Posted: 18 March 2025 at 5:53pm | IP Logged | 1
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That Dark Phoenix is still a major topic for discussion—and exploitation—almost half a century after the fact is a source of some depression for me. When I started reading American comics, in the Fifties, the closest they came to excavating the Past would be occasional references to “the last time we fought the Joker.” And those would not actually reference specific stories. It was really Marvel in the Sixties that laid the groundwork for “continuity” as a vital part of storytelling. Something that got worse and worse as more fans became pros.
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Mark Haslett
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 6746
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| Posted: 19 March 2025 at 3:00pm | IP Logged | 2
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There's a kind of "Pandora's Box" quality to continuity.
It really sucked me in as a fan, but it really choked the life out of comics for future generations.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 134111
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| Posted: 19 March 2025 at 4:26pm | IP Logged | 3
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An editor at DC once said to me that “continuity” means Superman is from Krypton and he will always be from Krypton. If only it was that simple!
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Vinny Valenti
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 8231
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| Posted: 19 March 2025 at 4:40pm | IP Logged | 4
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"It really sucked me in as a fan"
--
I'm guessing that you became a fan in the 80s, as did I. In one of my first issues of X-MEN in 1983, Claremont made reference to Dark Phoenix. As the original story was then only about 3 years old, that feels like fair game.
But we're going on 45 years now!!!!
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 134111
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| Posted: 19 March 2025 at 4:47pm | IP Logged | 5
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None of this would be an issue if Chris had just ACCEPTED the story we ended up with. Slim chance. This is the guy who would not let go of the death of Thunderbird!
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John Cole
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 02 March 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 518
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| Posted: 19 March 2025 at 4:53pm | IP Logged | 6
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I Always thought originally Phoenix was nothing more than Marvel Girl with her powers amplified by cosmic rays.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 134111
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| Posted: 19 March 2025 at 5:40pm | IP Logged | 7
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That was the original plan.
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Michael Penn
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 April 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 12858
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| Posted: 19 March 2025 at 6:23pm | IP Logged | 8
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The only reason that this story had, for me as a reader when #137 came out, a genuine impact is that I truly believed Jean Grey was dead. Before it was even hinted that she might not be, it was being ruined. A mere ten issues later: Rogue Storm. We did it before...!
Something rare and precious instantly made ordinary and cheap. |
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Matt Hawes
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 16587
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| Posted: 19 March 2025 at 8:05pm | IP Logged | 9
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Michael Penn: "...A mere ten issues later: Rogue Storm. We did it before...!"
And not long after that was THIS, which featured a Dark Phoenix parody!
And about a few issues after that... THIS!
And then THIS cross-over with Dark Phoenix!
And then we return to the main title for THIS!
And then another cross-over that alludes to Dark Phoenix HERE!
Well... Phoenix lived up to her codename in that she kept rising from the grave over and over again, in various forms. It's hard to miss someone when they never go away.
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James Woodcock
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 September 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 8044
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| Posted: 19 March 2025 at 9:52pm | IP Logged | 10
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It was such a weird thing. Dead but turning up every few months.
Never let go.
Some I really liked - the crossover for example, some I just did not.
Once X-Factor arrived, and Rachel was around for real, there was nowhere
to go.
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Jean Voulis
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 February 2025
Location: Canada
Posts: 79
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| Posted: 19 March 2025 at 11:48pm | IP Logged | 11
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I like consistency rather than strict continuity.
And even that I am forgiving as long as it is a good story - I figure some of these tales are 'oral histories' and the details change over the years and based on who is telling them - but the core is always there.
Was Tony Stark in Vietnam? Or Sin-Cong? Or Afghanistan? It does not matter to me - just a war zone.
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Jean Voulis
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 February 2025
Location: Canada
Posts: 79
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| Posted: 19 March 2025 at 11:50pm | IP Logged | 12
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And in retrospect now it is clear that Claremont could not let Jean go - Maddy Pryor is now clearly a stand in for depowered Jean who can live out his original plans...plus Rachel..then Jean returns (and Claremont hints that she was always Phoenix - screwing up the resurrection story just told in Avengers and FF)...what a mess by the time X-Factor is around it becomes a cheap convoluted soap opera.
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