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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133742
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| Posted: 01 July 2011 at 11:09am | IP Logged | 1
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For instance, once, writer “A,” who shall remain nameless, wanted Doctor Doom to “guest-villain” in the series he wrote. I okayed it, over the snarling objections of writer “B,” who wrote the series in which Doom usually appeared.••• As "Writer B" I can tell you this absolutely did not happen. Shooter was not the one who controlled the guest appearances -- that was solely the job of the editors involved. So, having Doom appear in UNCANNY came down to an agreement between whoever was then editor of the X-Book, and whoever was then editor of FANTASTIC FOUR. Shooter's role in "authorizing" guest shots took more often the form of what happened with the Disco Dazzler, where he ordered Chris and me to expand our two part Kitty Pryde intro to force in another introduction -- of a character we'd had no part in creating, and really wanted as little to do with as possible. This, of course, reached its greatest extreme with the Beyonder, who was forced into stories without any consideration of what the original authors had planned.
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Mark Haslett
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 6547
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| Posted: 01 July 2011 at 1:21pm | IP Logged | 2
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JB: This, of course, reached its greatest extreme with the Beyonder, who was
forced into stories without any consideration of what the original authors
had planned.*** Resulting in personal best work from every single editor/writer/artist
working at the time, right? I mean, improving Marvel's comic books was the
only goal, right? Who could have predicted such an edict would lead to limp, forced story
beats appearing in every single comic across the Marvel line?
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133742
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| Posted: 01 July 2011 at 1:35pm | IP Logged | 3
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It should be remembered, too, that (as noted) my complaints about Doom's appearance in UNCANNY X-MEN came after the fact, when I saw how Chris had written the character (Arcade striking a match on his armor). I had no problem beforehand. In fact, as many of you probably know, I had long been an advocate of "sharing the wealth" by having villains cross-pollinate to other books. This, I maintained, would help reduce the effect that usually kicked in with a villain's third or forth appearance, where his whole reason for existing became the destruction of the star(s) of one particular title. This would also, in theory, cut down on the creation of lame and redundant characters.
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Roger A Ott II
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 29 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5371
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| Posted: 01 July 2011 at 1:49pm | IP Logged | 4
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JB wrote:
| I had no problem beforehand. In fact, as many of you probably know, I had long been an advocate of "sharing the wealth" by having villains cross-pollinate to other books. |
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Acts of Vengeance ran with that idea, and I really liked seeing how heroes and villains who had never crossed paths before dealt with each other. Probably one of my favorite "Crossovers" because of that.
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William T. Byrd
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 August 2009
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| Posted: 01 July 2011 at 3:24pm | IP Logged | 5
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Shooter's role in "authorizing" guest shots took more often the form of what happened with the Disco Dazzler, where he ordered Chris and me to expand our two part Kitty Pryde intro to force in another introduction -- of a character we'd had no part in creating, and really wanted as little to do with as possible.
Since X-Men hadn't started really taking off in sales yet, I wonder why Shooter didn't want Dazzler's debut to take place in another, better- selling title like Amazing Spider-Man. Was it just because she was a mutant?
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133742
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| Posted: 01 July 2011 at 6:42pm | IP Logged | 6
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X-MEN didn't have the sales, but it WAS the book people were talking about.
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Matt Hawes
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 16518
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| Posted: 01 July 2011 at 6:52pm | IP Logged | 7
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It's funny to think that the "Uncanny X-Men" was a cult hit at the time, not a mass-market hit, yet. I started reading the series with #122, and loved it. I knew about the team from "Marvel Tean-Up" #4 and a reprint of "X-Men" #3 in the trade paperback collection "Marvel's Greatet Battles" (both featuring the original line-up), but #122 was the first issue I read of the series with the new members. A friend of mine was also a fan of the book, so I had assumed the book was pretty popular with most fans at the time. Then again, the kids on my block all seemed to be into "Nova" when it first was published, and I thought for years that he was a bigger character than he really was, so my environment could skew such perceptions.
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Vinny Valenti
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 8179
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| Posted: 01 July 2011 at 6:53pm | IP Logged | 8
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Speaking of Secret Wars, it illustrates another way that Bob Harras
was the anti-Shooter. When Bob became EIC, the first thing he did
was quit writing the Avengers, and did not write anything else during
that stint. Not only did Shooter continue writing from time to time, he
wrote 2 major crossovers and forced all of the other writers to account
for them, the Beyonder being the worst part of all.If anyone has needs to wonder if Shooter has an overbearing ego, the
answer is "Secret Wars II".
Edited by Vinny Valenti on 01 July 2011 at 7:17pm
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Paul Gibney
Byrne Robotics Member.
Joined: 17 April 2004
Location: Canada
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| Posted: 01 July 2011 at 7:03pm | IP Logged | 9
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I've known John personally for 35+ years now. I don't claim to have been
an actual witness at any of the events being discussed here, BUT... When
talking to John, we often discuss the events of the day as well as what's
going on in his work. John's version of what happened here hasn't changed
since I first heard it, AS THE EVENTS WERE HAPPENING. I recall his
frustration with having to go back and re-do the already finished Death of
Phoenix story because Shooter had suddenly changed his mind, and that
they were going to kill her off rather than let Shooter have his "tortured for
eternity" ending. This meant that he had to go back and redo pages (for
free, mind you) that had already been approved. I also remember John
telling me (and others) the same Hulk throwing a punch story when that
Spider-man issue came out. As for Shooter's hands-on approach, John
was bemoaning that for years at Marvel. It certainly isn't a new
observation. Now, I don't claim to know Jim Shooter well, having only met
him a few times. I have probably spent less than 8 hours talking to Shooter
in my life, but from what I saw, I have to say that John's versions ring true
for me; Jim's, not so much. Since the Byrne versions have not changed
over the years, but Shooter's appear to have, I know which recollections I'd
bet on.
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Mark Haslett
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 April 2004
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Posts: 6547
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| Posted: 01 July 2011 at 7:40pm | IP Logged | 10
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f anyone has needs to wonder if Shooter has an overbearing ego, the
answer is "Secret Wars II".
**
It sure strikes me that way-- what kind of conceit must one have to even
conceive of forcing your story into EVERYONE else's title.I mean, the thought might cross anyone's mind, but acting upon it and
literally FORCING it where it isn't welcome? Sales on the title were good, so there is that argument. But that's never
the argument that Shooter makes. He wants to be remembered as the
one who "fought for creators' rights" and who "let the creators create".
That's like Michael Jordan wanting to be remembered as a baseball
player.
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Cory Vandernet
Byrne Robotics Member
Henchman
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 854
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| Posted: 01 July 2011 at 7:50pm | IP Logged | 11
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I'm backing up Paul on this, I remember John being 6+ pages into X-Men 138 when the edict came down from Shooter and how John had to repencil the last part of 137 virtually overnight, and then repencil portions of 138. I also remember being in the Marvel offices with Jim Shooter, Roger Stern, JB and Paul after hours, some monthes later, when the changes to X-Men 137 were mentioned during the conversation, and the chill that suddenly hung over the room until Roger changed the subject. Paul and I saw the original pencils to most of JB's X-Men, FF, and Captain America issues when he lived in town, so from my vantage point Shooter is delusional.
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Eric Ladd
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 August 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 4504
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| Posted: 01 July 2011 at 8:00pm | IP Logged | 12
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I know my bias when it comes to these types of stories and which side I assume is true, but it is nice to have Paul and Cory help reassure me about my "gut" feeling. Now if I could just contain the newly discovered envy I have for these two gentlemen and their front row tickets to comics over the years. =)
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