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Emery Calame
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5773
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| Posted: 21 May 2011 at 11:07pm | IP Logged | 1
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Pat Boone's 'In a Metal Mood: No More Mr Nice Guy' was very intentionally and viciously making fun of the heavy metal scene and it did a damned fine job of it too. He's the guy who inspired folks like Hayseed Dixie(ACDC songs done as bluegrass instrumentals) and Richard Cheese (big band versions of anything on the radio) to start doing out of genre covers. His prank nudged Paul Anka into doing Nirvana covers.
Pat Boone thought that metal was tacky, sophmoric, had terrible lyrics and wanted to show how moving it over to a different style of music completely destroyed any illusion of its coolness and showed how badly it was designed and how dependent it was on a very specific goofy vocal style and theatrical context to sell it.
His project also showed that a lot of the rock industry didn't like being made fun of( especially by some old glitzy Vegas square like Pat Boone) as much as it liked being in a position to make fun of other things. Pat Boone really attacked a sacred cow. Suddenly the world was upside down and Grandpa was taunting the skate board kids at the park and they did not know what to do so they just tried to ignore it.
Of course the actual musicians (who don't base their self worth on a reflexive youthful rejection of big band jazz or vegas lounge music and like a broad range of music and are often influenced or inspired by it) enjoyed it and thought it was hilarious. Their sales teams and fans were not so amused however. Pat Boone dressed up in a black leather biker vest with raybans and a dog collar, put a huge ear ring in the wrong ear and showed up at music award shows and acted silly beside Alice Cooper to promote his new cover project.
You might not like what Pat Boone did but it was not a case of him making some ludicrously clueless nerdy attempt to climb aboard the metal train with no idea of what he was doing. Pat was intentionally tweaking the metal scene's nose and having a good time doing it. It was a quasi punk-rock or da-daist sort of thing to do and he never broke character. He just kept grinning and let those who got it have a big laugh, and those who didn't could jeer and complain about how sad and lame his attention seeking was or how awful his stuff was or how he didn't get metal.
This is his version of Dio's 'Holy Diver'.
Ozzy Osbourne's 'Crazy Train' (Pat's cheeze ball masterpiece)
THAT is done on purpose by design and it kind of works. The absurdity is amusing and the redone tunes are still sort of catchy even if the lyrics aren't.
Marvel on the other hand is clueless and are just flailing around in a crap pit. There's really nothing subversive to it any more because what it started out trying to subvert is off the market now. Marvel's "style" now is just a sickening failure to live up to what came before based on trying to be scary, cool, and shocking while underestimating the intelligence of the reader at every turn, and carelessly imitating stuff from TV.
Edited by Emery Calame on 21 May 2011 at 11:52pm
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Bill Mimbu
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 April 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 7368
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| Posted: 21 May 2011 at 11:24pm | IP Logged | 2
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Exactly Emery. Problem is, the powers that be at Marvel are serious about this, and the joke is on the fans.
Edited by Bill Mimbu on 21 May 2011 at 11:34pm
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Emery Calame
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5773
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| Posted: 21 May 2011 at 11:37pm | IP Logged | 3
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Marvel is dangerous the same way that tainted food is dangerous. It looks alright on the surface sometimes but it doesn't smell quite right, it might make you vomit a whole lot, and you're probably way better off not eating it.
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Bill Mimbu
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 April 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 7368
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| Posted: 21 May 2011 at 11:40pm | IP Logged | 4
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^ Best analogy ever.
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Bill Collins
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 26 May 2005
Location: England
Posts: 11296
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| Posted: 22 May 2011 at 1:09am | IP Logged | 5
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He`s right they ARE dangerous,i got a paper cut from a Marvel comic once!
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Joe S. Walker
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 606
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| Posted: 22 May 2011 at 3:58am | IP Logged | 6
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Q: Back in the day, who was the last person on earth who'd have said Marvel Comics were "dangerous" or "subversive" (as Quesada did a couple of years ago?)
A: Stan Lee.
But then Stan had been through the Fifties, when being labelled dangerous or subversive got you into trouble in the real world.
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William Roberge
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 July 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 11308
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| Posted: 22 May 2011 at 4:04am | IP Logged | 7
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I wonder how Disney feels about their "Edgy" child.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133328
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| Posted: 22 May 2011 at 4:16am | IP Logged | 8
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I wonder how Disney feels about their "Edgy" child.•• That may be the crux of this matter. When the Disney takeover was announced, there was much muttering about the Mouse-ification of Marvel. This reads a whole lot like Breevort's ham-fisted attempt to quiet such talk.
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Rick Whiting
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 April 2004
Posts: 2215
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| Posted: 22 May 2011 at 5:58am | IP Logged | 9
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Brevoort: I think it’s no surprise, EarthOne, that there’s been a greater permissibility in entertainment across all media over the 25 years since "The Mutant Massacre" saw print. For example, language is now allowed on basic cable channels that was considered a little shocking on pay stations in 1986. This is the world and the culture that we live in, and comics tend to keep pace with the larger trends in this regard.Isn't this like saying "All of the other kids use drugs, so I should be allowed to use them as well"? Here's the thing that Brevoort and Marvel either don't realize or refuse to admit, those shows on basic cable TV that use that kind of salty adult language (and other adult material) are not aimed or marketed at kids (or teens for that matter), but are aimed squarely at adults. You don't see toys based off of Mad Men or Nip/Tuck advertised on TV and sold in TOYS R US or see the characters from the Shield and Archer on lunch boxes.
Heck, even those teen dramas on TEENNICK like Degrassi: The Next Generation (Which, IMO, go way too far in regards to sex and language) are not marketed towards young kids. Brevoort and Marvel need to accept the fact that teen and adult civilians who don't read (or have never read) comics (let alone, superhero comics) will not suddenly start reading Marvel superhero comics no matter how mature and edgy Marvel makes those books.
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Carmen Bernardo
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 08 August 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 3666
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| Posted: 22 May 2011 at 5:58am | IP Logged | 10
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Ham-fisted ain't the way to describe it. Something else, perhaps, but not necessarily something I'd want to speak out loudly in front of my nieces and nephew when I'm hanging out with them. 'BS' would be putting it too nicely. Breevort is my definition of 'corporate monkey'. It's his bottom line, at the expense of that of all the potential audiences, young and old.
Edited by Carmen Bernardo on 22 May 2011 at 5:59am
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Rick Whiting
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 April 2004
Posts: 2215
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| Posted: 22 May 2011 at 7:14am | IP Logged | 11
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"Even within a company like Marvel, there are numerous points of view on this subject, because it’s an issue that is very much subjective. Each person’s personal line for what is and is not acceptable is a little bit different -- and even that might depend on the circumstances. There have been occasions I’ve been privy to, for instance, where a particular editor or creator was against a depiction of violence in another person’s book, but was perfectly fine with doing the same kind of thing in their own book. That’s not hypocrisy, that’s a person making a judgment call based on his subjective reading of the context. I find that there is no absolute right-and-wrong definition that will make everybody happy when it comes to these kinds of questions. Marvel's policy on appropriate content varies from title to title At Marvel, we’ve got broad guidelines about what we think is acceptable in all of our different titles, but we will adjudicate specific instances are acceptable or not. There’s a different yardstick we might use, for example, when dealing with "Amazing Spider-Man" and "Wolverine." But for the most part, we depend on our individual editors to use their own judgment when it comes to these matters, only involving people further up the chain of command, such as myself, Axel, Joe Q, Dan Buckley or Jim Sokolowski, in an instance where the decision could have a greater impact on our business, or might have ramifications beyond just publishing -- the greater the impact, the more people who might be consulted. And then we make the best call that we can."Please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it because of crap like this why JB was opposed to a universal comic book rating system back in the 80's? Didn't JB say that this exact thing was going to happen if a rating system was implemented?
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 22 May 2011 at 9:01am | IP Logged | 12
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Here's the thing that Brevoort and Marvel either don't realize or refuse to admit, those shows on basic cable TV that use that kind of salty adult language (and other adult material) are not aimed or marketed at kids (or teens for that matter), but are aimed squarely at adults.•• Unfortunately, many people at Marvel think that's their audience, too. And while many comic book readers today are chronologically well past the traditional target audience (take this Forum as a cross section), there seems to be a profound failure to grasp the very important fact that comics have never been terribly successful at BUILDING on that adult market base. The idiots-that-be at the Big Two forget that the adults who currently read comics mostly started as kids. They also forget that those who clung to the hobby into adulthood and beyond were traditionally viewed as anything BUT the group we should be targeting.
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Topic Closed)
