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Bill Catellier
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Posted: 16 June 2011 at 11:15am | IP Logged | 1  

Greg, I don't mind a reboot or whatever they're calling it.  It's the discarding of proven successful concepts that I dislike.  If they wish to move JSA to an E2 type situation fine.  If they want to confine them to WW II, fine.  But simply scrapping the idea will cause more problems when they eventually decide to bring them back.  As for Secret Six, no reason that concept won't work within the new DC
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Phil Kreisel
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Posted: 16 June 2011 at 11:29am | IP Logged | 2  

Continuity does present its share of problems.  Without repeating what's been said, I'm like to add another point that maybe contributes to the problem.  This started when Dr. Doom fell out of a spaceship when fighting the FF and the Sub-mariner back in Fantastic Four Vol 1, #6 (in the early 60's).  He returned to plague the FF in issue #10.  Stan and Jack asked him how he survived (I don't remember how).  We were told and then the lastest plan sprang into action.

As such, a timeline gets established.  However, the backstory was provided in I think 2 or 3 panels, and then we got on with things.

If today's writers and artists would bother to do this, then there's no problem with anyone picking up a book.  Those people who hadn't read the previous (separate) story could seek it out if they wanted to, but it wasn't necessary to enjoy the current story.

The other problem with today's books is the multi-part stories that are being created specifically to put out trades.  I've stated in the past that many of these stories could have actually been told in maybe a two parter at most.  Jumping into a story in the middle for a new reader is like walking into a movie midway through and trying to figure out what was going on.  I remember as a kid going to movies with my parents and walking into the theatre in the middle of the show... drove me nuts (and in those ancient days, you could go into the theatre at any point in the movie, not just prior to it starting).  Well, this could be a problem for new readers.

There were some epic stories done in the early "Marvel age of comics" that were worthy of the multi-part story... the first Galactus is a prime example of one that worked.

So go back to doing good storytelling and your fanbase will build.

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Sean Blythe
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Posted: 16 June 2011 at 12:03pm | IP Logged | 3  

For better or worse, they gotta stop making decisions based on the few
old timers hanging around, and focus on new readers!

_______

Greg W. is exactly right. DC needs to see themselves as a startup, legacy
readers be damned (although, let's face it, a lot of them will follow). They
need to leverage the audience for their movies, animated shows and video
games, and they need to stop worrying about what fandom wants, thinks
it wants or complains about. Even if that means losing money in the short
term. Even if that means losing current readers, local comic shops and
speculators. DC is in critical condition WITH those people.

The current generation of regular comicbook readers is the last
generation of regular comic book readers, with no one behind them in
line. Trying to appease them is like Microsoft trying to appease users of
Windows 95. At some point, you need to let go and figure out a way to
appeal to new readers. (Lots of people complain that their original iPhone
is now obsolete five years later. You know who don't complain? People
with Apple stock. People who work at Apple. People who like innovation.)

The approach I'm advocating is not going to appeal to the "they need
more distribution in drugstores" crowd. Times have changed. That sucks,
but they have. I like that old picture of the kid at the newsstand with the
huge rack of comics next to him, but that era is long gone. That kid
doesn't exit. That newsstand doesn't exist. That time where kids could
wander off and shop by themselves doesn't even exist. The film on which
that picture was taken doesn't exist. You can wish that it did. If wishes
were horses...

You don't run a business by wishing that people still behaved the way the
used to behave, instead of understanding why they behave the way they
actually do. Stan Lee knew that. His 1960s Marvel was a comicbook
company for a new age. Stan thought DC comics of that era were corny
and out of touch, so he did something new. Sometimes that meant putting
a Beatles wig on The Thing. Unfortunate choice, but emblematic of what's
going on now. (You can imagine a WWII veteran, who got free Superman
comics in the war, thinking, "Ugh. Beatles wig. I'm out." Right. Exactly.
That's what Stan wanted. New blood. You don't like it, you need a new
hobby.)

Anyway, whatever. Time will tell. Me? I'm interested. Not interested
enough to go to my LCS, maybe. But interested enough to drop $40 to
download a few titles that interest me. They may not. They may (like
Marvel's Ultimate line) be sophomoric to my 40 year old eyes.

But DC shouldn't be concerned with a guy like me.



Edited by Sean Blythe on 16 June 2011 at 12:05pm

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Jonathan Stover
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Posted: 16 June 2011 at 1:50pm | IP Logged | 4  

No offense taken, John Bodin. Like I said, I'd prefer a return to Earth-1, etc., and I forgot to say (as I intended to) that I'd prefer a reboot by simple editorial fiat, just like the Silver Age's Flash, Green Lantern, Atom and Hawkman reboots, only company-wide. Then, the only eventual nod to continuity (if someone wants to go there in the farflung future of 2017) would be to have the new universe cross over with the old one in the pages of JLA in, oh, five or six years or so. And then the cycle starts all over again...

Cheers, Jon

 

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Dave Phelps
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Posted: 16 June 2011 at 5:51pm | IP Logged | 5  

Greg W:  "For better or worse, they gotta stop making decisions based on the few old timers hanging around, and focus on new readers!"

I'd agree with that, but it seems like they feel the way to do it is roll back the clock to varying degrees and I just don't see that as the ideal way to go to attract "new readers." 

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Greg Woronchak
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Posted: 17 June 2011 at 8:12am | IP Logged | 6  

it seems like they feel the way to do it is roll back the clock to varying degrees

I agree. The fact that their reboots are hand-cuffed by recent stories that are still part of continuity is a mistake, IMO. If DC really wanted to start from square one, that might have been more interesting than what they've ended up choosing to do.

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Andrew W. Farago
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Posted: 17 June 2011 at 1:12pm | IP Logged | 7  

I'm wondering how much uproar there'd have been if the Internet had been around when Crisis on Infinite Earths happened.

They're making Kid Flash the new Flash?  They're wiping out all of Superman's history, even the stories that were just published three months ago?  A new origin for Batman?  No Wonder Woman comics until next year?  Vibe and Gypsy are still in the Justice League? 

I'm sure that a lot more people are going to try out DC's new books in September than any polls or online griping indicate.  There are several books that are on my "definitely gonna buy" list at this point, at least a few that I'll flip through when September rolls around, and probably some that I'll wait for word of mouth, reviews, recommendations from friends, etc. 

My first DC comic post-Crisis was John Byrne's Superman #1, so who's to say that all of this won't accomplish exactly what DC is hoping to achieve, which is bringing in new readers who weren't looking at their product before? 
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Joe Zhang
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Posted: 17 June 2011 at 8:44pm | IP Logged | 8  

What has been revealed by so far suggests to me that DC sees the following as obstacles:

- Superman's traditional characterization

It's obvious there will be an attitude change to Superman, at least on the surface. The new Superman looks meaner, his costume less colorful. He's no longer the "boy scout" which which detractors have long characterized him as.

- Selective parts of continuity

Most of the characters are getting their stories retold, but DC has stated that Identity Crisis, Final Night, Brightest Day are going to stay in the new continuity. The recent Batman stories (as well as the Killing Joke) will be counted. This tells me that DC still believes in big events and continuity as a selling point. DC just doesn't happen to believe in the big events and continuity from previous editorial regimes.

There's no indication to me that they believe they have problems with their art or storytelling. If anything, the covers suggest an even harder edge to the stories. Nothing stands out as communicating action or fun, so there really isn't any effort at expanding the readership outside of a matured audience.  Yes, this is a big reboot, but with no essential change in creative direction.

DC's digital initiative could be seen as a reactive step instead. The woes of Borders and other book sellers probably dimmed the prospect of DC's trade paperback business. Digital comics is DC's way of getting not a wider audience, but the same customers they are losing in the book stores. So instead of applauding DC for their digital step, I they should be criticized for taking so very long to do so, and for setting their goals so low.

My prognostication is that DC will end up burning themselves badly. Much of their readership has been following their books out of slavish loyalty to continuity, and they will see this reboot as an opportunity to leave. They probably haven't been enjoying the stories anyways. And while DC may sell thousands of digital copies of Superman and Batman books, the rest will fail. DC will have sacrificed their bread-and-butter direct market audience for higher sales on less than a dozen titles.


Edited by Joe Zhang on 17 June 2011 at 8:47pm
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Flavio Sapha
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Posted: 17 June 2011 at 8:53pm | IP Logged | 9  

Quite right, Joe!
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Bill Catellier
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Posted: 17 June 2011 at 11:13pm | IP Logged | 10  

I've seen DC post three new covers with Superman and each one looks different.  Not sure if his costume is a work in progress, but it seems like a bad idea for him not to end up in his classic suit.  On some level DC seems to understand this.  When they put out merchandise for the masses (t-shirts, backpacks, etc)  they tend to use the classic look.  They know it's recognizable, that it's iconic.  So why screw with the look?  Many things may be broken, but the looks of Superman, Flash, Wonder Woman etc are not.
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Kip Lewis
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Posted: 18 June 2011 at 5:51am | IP Logged | 11  

Regarding the three Superman looks--guy at my LCS suggests the Lee
and Perez drawing are the same costume, just their individual takes
on it (and no one tells Perez he is wrong) and the Morrison book
costume, isn't meant to be a literal costume. It's more suggestive of
the story style than what he is actually wearing. (I kindof wondered if
Morrison is telling the story of young Clark and like in Smallville, he
wore a "S" shirt as the Blur, before he went to full costume.)

Edited by Kip Lewis on 18 June 2011 at 5:52am
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Brad Teschner
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Posted: 18 June 2011 at 6:31am | IP Logged | 12  

can't they just sit down and decide to make comics that are fun again?!? all
this worry over continuity and bringing a harder edge to their books...just
write a fun friggin' comic book, for cryin' out loud! is it really that hard??!!??
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