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Ed Love Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 October 2004 Location: United States Posts: 2712
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Posted: 24 August 2011 at 8:34am | IP Logged | 1
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"Speaking of sales, how badly did the direct market affect sales? Take a peek: "Wait, am I reading this chart right - 1985's Crisis caused a sizable drop in overall DC sales, which didn't even completely recover during the next 2 post-Crisis years?? ----------------------------------------------------- Cannot really attribute a "cause and effect" to that, if you notice Marvel sales dropped by about the same amount and grew back at the same rate only to drop again while DC continued to rise.
But, it wouldn't be that huge of a surprise. Post Crisis, DC had two major revamps immediately (Superman & Wonder Woman), but most titles continued much the same. They didn't reboot Titans or Legion, two of their most popular titles, but both titles had already peaked and were in decline by this point. Moore's lauded run of Swamp Thing was nearing the end. It would be another year before DC relaunched the Justice League to new heights. It wasn't until '86 that we saw Watchmen released and '87 the release of more mature readers titles that were Direct Market only as Grell's extended run on Green Arrow and O'Neil on The Question. Part of what made Truman's Hawkworld such a mess was it came years AFTER Crisis, the window for rebooting the character had long come and went.
The chart ends before the point where we should really see if their more innovative changes, namely the titles that would lead to the formation of the Vertigo imprint would lead to overall gains or not. I saw with Vertigo (mostly SANDMAN) that the comics got an influx of a new type of readers, readers who came in each month to buy one title only, readers that weren't interested in collecting or buying dozens of comics each month.
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Mike Bunge Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 10 June 2004 Location: United States Posts: 1335
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Posted: 24 August 2011 at 9:42am | IP Logged | 2
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"The chart ends before the point where we should really see if their more innovative changes, namely the titles that would lead to the formation of the Vertigo imprint would lead to overall gains or not." Outside of a handful of titles, Vertigo sales have traditionally been much lower than DC super-hero books. Mike
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Ed Love Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 October 2004 Location: United States Posts: 2712
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Posted: 24 August 2011 at 10:10am | IP Logged | 3
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I'm not talking about Vertigo by itself but the overall sales of DC at that time, when there was a true diverse range of material slated to appeal to a broad base of readers, of which Vertigo was part of. Its sales may have been lower, but its sales were also made up in part of people traditionally not buying DC or comics in general.
Once you get to '89 and the early 90s, you had Superman, Action, Batman, Justice League etc for the general audience, still written for all-ages. You had mature-readers superhero titles (when it meant more sophisticated writing and not simply adult language and T&A) such as Legends of the Dark Knight, The Question, Green Arrow, and you had the Vertigo line Hellblazer, Swamp Thing, Sandman and spin-offs and eventually Animal Man, Doom Patrol.
The other problem with the chart is that it ignores all the other companies, the booms and busts of independents such as First, Innovation, Topps, Malibu, Continuity, Dark Horse and eventually Image and Valiant. To analyze the health of the Industry we need the total numbers of comics sold across the board. Does that 1985 dip in Marvel and DC sales correspond with spikes elsewhere? It's not necessarily a bad thing if the big two's numbers drop some if overall, numbers go up.
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Sean Blythe Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 13 July 2006 Location: United States Posts: 342
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Posted: 24 August 2011 at 10:56am | IP Logged | 4
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When you're looking at those charts, keep population in mind as well. According to the list at the bottom, in 1950, comic book sales by the big 2 were approx. 13.5 million... in a country of 152 million. By 1987, the big two sold about 10.4 million comics... in a country with 242 million people. That's a 23% drop in sales, in a country that was 38% bigger. And that was 24 years ago. Again, according to this chart, the combined number of comics sold by the big 2 in 2006 was 7.4 million... in a country that's closer to 300 million in population. You can certainly factor in Image and Valiant etc. into the mix where appropriate, but to do so you need to also add Archie and Gold Key and EC etc. into the earlier numbers (I think that makes it worse).
Edited by Sean Blythe on 24 August 2011 at 10:57am
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Kip Lewis Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 March 2011 Posts: 2880
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Posted: 24 August 2011 at 3:03pm | IP Logged | 5
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Regarding the population numbers; I'm not sure total population numbers are the best indicators. It might be better to compare the number of boys ages 8 to 14 in those years, since many seem to feel those your the ideal bracket of buyers. What I mean, a fivefold increase in the non-buying segment of the population isn't the best measure.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133528
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Posted: 25 August 2011 at 12:58pm | IP Logged | 6
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I am all for beating up DC for their poor marketing, but criticizing them for their future solicitations is pretty weak.Traditionally, solicits are 2 months in advance...not sure there's anything to more to it that needs to be read into. •• Against the context of the history of the industry, there is PLENTY more to be "read into it", not the least of which is taking a close look at that word "traditionally". These months-in-advance solicitations are a manifestation of the Direct Sales Market, and they are all about speculators who want to know if a book will be "worth buying". IE, will it have a suitable (to them) combination of hot artists, hot writers, hot characters -- and, preferably, some "event" that will make the book a "collectible". In the days before the DSM, books were announced the month they came out, in house ads and on flak pages like the Bullpen Bulletins. There were fanzines like THE COMIC READER or THE COMIC BUYER'S GUIDE that listed upcoming issues, but they reached only a tiny portion of the audience. For most readers -- key word there -- of comics, what was happening in the "next issue" of AMAZING SPIDER-MAN meant literally the next issue, not one scheduled for three months down the line. I still look back with some degree of wonderment, at the fact that for most people a true event like the first SUPERMAN/SPIDER-MAN crossover was something they didn't know about until they saw the house ads or, in some cases, actually saw the book on the rack! The main difference in all this being, of course, that it was possible to plot ahead without fearing that one's stories would be blown by the solicitations. Ask yourself if the Dark Phoenix conclusion (pretending for a moment here that it played out as something Chris and I had planned all along) would have had the memorable impact it did if the month X-MEN 134 hit the stands, the solicitations were already telling the readers what was going to be in 137.
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Dan James Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 August 2011 Posts: 139
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Posted: 25 August 2011 at 1:18pm | IP Logged | 7
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As a kid (of the 80's), the "first look" I used to get at the next month's issue was in the letter column of the current month's issue. It was great to read a comic, get to the cliffhanger, and only then get "teased" in the letter column by the next issue's cover.
Edited by Dan James on 25 August 2011 at 1:18pm
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Thom Price Byrne Robotics Member
LHomme Diabolique
Joined: 29 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 7593
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Posted: 25 August 2011 at 1:39pm | IP Logged | 8
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Somewhere along the line, marketing went from providing teasers to giving away the whole shebang. I can't count the number of times I sat through a movie preview, turned to my companion and said, "Well no need to waste two hours on that movie -- I just saw the whole story in 90 seconds!"
GREEN LANTERN was the movie of the summer I was most interested in seeing. My decision to forgo seeing it had less to do with poor reviews/word-of-mouth, and more to do with feeling like I've already seen it. Between previews, commercials, online clips, reviews, summaries, I was a bit sick of the movie before it even opened.
Same thing happens in TV now. It's already been "leaked" what happens to Charlie Sheen's character in TWO AND A HALF MEN, as well as the details of Ashton Kutcher's characters. Why would I need to watch it, when I already know everything that's going to happen?
No need to even seek out this information; it's almost unavoidable.
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Robert LaGuardia Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 15 November 2007 Location: United States Posts: 1296
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Posted: 25 August 2011 at 2:03pm | IP Logged | 9
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I agree strongly about the movie previews, Thom. Most of the time they leave nothing left to see besides the resolution, which is predictable most of the time anyway without knowing every last plot point.
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Joe Alexander Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 18 November 2010 Location: United States Posts: 572
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Posted: 25 August 2011 at 4:18pm | IP Logged | 10
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JB- The main difference in all this being, of course, that it was possible to plot ahead without fearing that one's stories would be blown by the solicitations. Ask yourself if the Dark Phoenix conclusion (pretending for a moment here that it played out as something Chris and I had planned all along) would have had the memorable impact it did if the month X-MEN 134 hit the stands, the solicitations were already telling the readers what was going to be in 137. -------------------------------------------------That very example of X-Men 137 is one that has crossed my mind over the years. I've thought if Previews/Newsarama,etc. was around back in the day, that issue (which was more than just one great issue, but a culmination of many issues) would have been ruined. I would've hated seeing the iconic cover JB did for 138 prior to even opening 136. Part of the fun was just dwelling on what you had just experienced and wondering where they (the creators) were going with their stories. I honestly don't remember if there was any special hype for that issue prior to its release; I do remember it knocking my socks off after reading it. I don't know how creators can possibly build great stories today without them being given away. I guess the generic covers "help."
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Don Berner Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 06 July 2010 Location: Canada Posts: 75
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Posted: 26 August 2011 at 10:43am | IP Logged | 11
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Hope nobody minds if I shift gears slightly with a thought that occurred to me the other day. I've mentioned previously in this thread that I'll be dropping DC for the first time in 30 years at the end of August. Then I realized this may be a very impermanent situation. This whole thing remind anyone else very much of "Heroes Reborn" in the '90's?
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Stéphane Garrelie Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 August 2005 Location: France Posts: 4226
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Posted: 26 August 2011 at 12:09pm | IP Logged | 12
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So, which books are in line fior the first week? Will i have my Batgirl & my Firestorm? Hawkman? Aquaman? Blackhawks? Justice League Dark? Probably one of the Batman titles?
Edited by Stéphane Garrelie on 26 August 2011 at 12:10pm
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