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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133294
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| Posted: 20 May 2011 at 4:17am | IP Logged | 1
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Oooh, can we start a thread on stupid management speak?The train is on the platform, ready to leave. Either you are on the train or not. Hate that one. Once answered 'Is it the right train?' Wasn't appreciated for some reason. •• Most likely because the use of metaphors depends upon a certain agreement among those involved, namely that the metaphor is a handy expression of a concept, and not meant to be a detailed description of all aspects involved. If someone says "That's the way the cookie crumbles" it is not particularly helpful to ask "But what kind of cookie was it?"
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Emery Calame
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5773
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| Posted: 20 May 2011 at 4:43am | IP Logged | 2
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Engineering tells us that the glass is twice as big as it needs to be to successfully hold all of the water.
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Carmen Bernardo
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 08 August 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 3666
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| Posted: 20 May 2011 at 5:36am | IP Logged | 3
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About that "thinking outside the box" trend, I'm thinking that there has been too much of it, and that it has skewed perceptions so much that almost nothing constructive is being done. In a way, it ties in with the "deconstructionism" of today's creative processes. If all you do is tear things down in order to build it up, then you're not really creating anything. You're just tearing it down. The new generation is completely lost to me.
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Craig Robinson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 28 November 2010
Location: United States
Posts: 1756
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| Posted: 20 May 2011 at 6:41am | IP Logged | 4
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I flipped through a bit of Flashpoint at the LCS the other day. Had to pass. But I wonder if perhaps this will be a DC attempt at Marvel's Ultimates to coexist alongside the existing storylines.
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Derek S. Wilczynski
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 May 2010
Posts: 139
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| Posted: 20 May 2011 at 9:31am | IP Logged | 5
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It's funny, because while I think the quality of comics being produced today is so much superior than in generations past (art is better, coloring is better, paper is better, stories are more diverse), it hasn't stopped the decline in sales. But then again, nothing has. Comics hit their collective peak in sales in what, the forties or fifties? Since then, there has been a decline in comics sales to the point where now, the top selling comic is lucky to break 100,000. There may be many reasons for the decline, but I really think that the popularity of comics has just declined with each generation because each subsequent generation doesn't have the same "magical" connection to the genre. When comics hit their peak in the forties/fifties, this was still the first generation of readers. Then, the decline started.
Even when Marvel overtook DC and touched a nerve with college aged kids, they never sold as well as DC books at their peak. (Superman in 1960 sold 810,000 on average per month. Spider-man in 1969 sold 375,000, per a couple of web sites which appear to be accurate.) I just think that we are fighting a losing battle here. We're part of a niche hobby with a shrinking fan base and I don't think there is anything we can do about it.
DC may as well reboot. I don't think they have anything to lose. I hope they do it well, and I generally try and be optimistic about these things. But I'm really not sure what the end game is. Moving sales from 12,000 books to 25,000 looks good in today's market, but where does it lead to long term? We'll probably not see even 200,000 per month sales again (I just don't think there is a market for it today with the other ubiquitous media outlets available to kids), but I'm really not against change, even for the sake of change. I don't think it can get any worse.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133294
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| Posted: 20 May 2011 at 10:20am | IP Logged | 6
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It's funny, because while I think the quality of comics being produced today is so much superior than in generations past (art is better, coloring is better, paper is better, stories are more diverse), it hasn't stopped the decline in sales. But then again, nothing has. Comics hit their collective peak in sales in what, the forties or fifties? Since then, there has been a decline in comics sales to the point where now, the top selling comic is lucky to break 100,000. •• Comics in those "peak" periods were sold in the widest possible number of venues, and targeted at the widest possible audiences. For the past thirty years or more, exactly the opposite has been true.
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Derek S. Wilczynski
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 May 2010
Posts: 139
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| Posted: 20 May 2011 at 10:33am | IP Logged | 7
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I don't disagree with you, but even before the venues shrank, so did sales. I don't ever recall seeing a shrinkage in venues from 1960 to 1969, but sales declined fairly significantly during that time.
Nonetheless, I'm not sure that the genre can ever get back to those levels again. Do you think that our culture today can even sustain sales of 500,000 per month? Or, probably a better question to ask - what do you think the ceiling is for monthly sales? (200,000?; 300,000 for the top selling book?)
My take is that I think the ship has sailed on the comics industry as a 500k per month industry. Some of it self-inflicted, but some of it simply due to generational shifts. Yo yo's still sell, as do hula hoops, but not at peak levels.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 20 May 2011 at 10:39am | IP Logged | 8
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… but even before the venues shrank, so did sales.•• Sure, but was that a good reason for the industry to commit suicide? "We're not selling like we used to, so let's take every step we can to ensure we sell EVEN LESS!"
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Derek S. Wilczynski
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 May 2010
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| Posted: 20 May 2011 at 10:55am | IP Logged | 9
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No, it wasn't a good reason.
I'm asking a different question, though - what can the industry sustain, even if it does everything right? (or at least what we perceive as being right - better outlets, kid friendlier comics, etc)
I'm not sure that the industry can sell comics at 200,000 - 300,000 levels per month anymore. I think the genre/hobby is at the niche level, partly because it shot itself in the foot, but also partly because I think comics have become anachronistic, and associated with a time in the past.
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Derek S. Wilczynski
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 May 2010
Posts: 139
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| Posted: 20 May 2011 at 11:06am | IP Logged | 10
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Two additional points I just thought of:
1. the industry seemed to be declining before the suicide; from 1960-1969, sales were declining; the suicide came later and may have hastened the decay after initially slowing it;
2. I have a five-year old daughter and three-year old son; I buy comics for both (Scooby Doo for her and Batman: B & B for my son); there is no way they will hunt down comics when I quit buying them; by the time their generation replaces mine, the industry will probably only be survived by movie, tv, and licensing.
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Michael Penn
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 April 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 12705
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| Posted: 20 May 2011 at 11:11am | IP Logged | 11
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When my stepson was 11 years old, he got very interested in comicbooks because that was when the Fantastic Four film had just been released and, by lucky coincidence, we were together at a used book store selling a slew of FF issues from the 70s and he asked for and I bought him about three dozen. This was a kid with a reading disability, someone who due to that disliked and constantly avoided reading -- and yet he asked for these comics and took them home and devoured them. Soon after he wanted, quite naturally, to find a contemporary issue. So, we went to a store and he started browsing through then-new FF issues and other comics and... he was soured, severely. They simply didn't REACH him, a kid. Whatever was being put out back then in 2005 was not meant for all-ages. (Also, he was disappointed when he saw the FF movie because it was too unlike the issues he'd read circa 1975-77.)
So, I can't see comicbooks, which survived generations of readers for so many decades of societal, cultural, technological changes, having become an obsolete genre had they remained faithful to the all-ages standard.
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Derek S. Wilczynski
Byrne Robotics Member
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| Posted: 20 May 2011 at 11:58am | IP Logged | 12
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I don't want to be the initiator of thread drift here. My initial point was that I can't see how a DC reboot could hurt. The industry has lost so much that, at this point, I don't see how it could get much worse. (Within reason of course. Turning Superman into a stoner or Batman into a Dexter like serial killer could ruin the franchises beyond repair, I understand.)
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Topic Closed)
