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Glen Keith
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 July 2010
Location: United States
Posts: 851
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| Posted: 03 May 2011 at 7:09pm | IP Logged | 1
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Oh, sure Greg, I understand the intent, and I respect that the creators hearts were in the right place, but I felt the end result was misguided, even trivializing. Frankly, I found it rather incongruous witnessing those characters commenting upon such a tragedy, considering the wanton destruction that occurs in the typical depictions of superhuman combat. It was even more bothersome to me when villains, any of whom would have been responsible for more death if their various plans weren’t routinely thwarted, were shown crying.
I thought the 9-11 heroes tribute magazine was a far better comment upon the event than ASM 36.
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Kip Lewis
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 March 2011
Posts: 2880
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| Posted: 03 May 2011 at 8:56pm | IP Logged | 2
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As I understand it, in that Spider-man piece, super-villains were supposed to be metaphors for America's traditional enemies, like Russia, and how they reacted rather than the villains themselves.
But I have to disagree that bringing super-heroes into the real world doesn't work. Marvel made its mark by having Cap punch Hitler before WW2 started (IIRC). U make it seem like giving terrorist super-villains and tech to level the playing field is not something we should do. The thing is 9-11 did happen in the comic world. U can no more ignore that then u can ignore Pearl Harbor when writing a 1942 super hero story. U may not mention it, but it had effected society. Of course, the sliding timescale is puts 9-11 nearly before heroes went into action. y.
And I also don't buy that 9-11 couldn't happen. All they have to do in DCU is plan to attack when they know someone else is keeping jla busy. They do that by having spies, like in Kobra. And in the MU, it is even less likely because most Marvel heroes are simply too slow to intervene. they may have lessen the death toll, but these guy aren't infalliable or perfect.
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Vinny Valenti
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 8162
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| Posted: 03 May 2011 at 9:15pm | IP Logged | 3
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The thing is 9-11 did happen in the comic world.....And I also don't buy that 9-11 couldn't happen. --- Well, it DID happen, before 9/11/01 courtesy of Black Tom Cassidy and the Juggernaut:  
Coincidentally, Juggernaut was also present at the site in ASM#36. I guess he was thinking "Been there, done that". See why ASM#36 was a bad idea, now?
Edited by Vinny Valenti on 03 May 2011 at 9:16pm
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Michael Roberts
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 14868
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| Posted: 03 May 2011 at 9:56pm | IP Logged | 4
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As I understand it, in that Spider-man piece, super-villains were supposed to be metaphors for America's traditional enemies, like Russia, and how they reacted rather than the villains themselves.----- The Cold War had ended a decade before. How does the "supervillain as Russia" metaphor work exactly?
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Brad Krawchuk
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 June 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 5819
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| Posted: 03 May 2011 at 10:46pm | IP Logged | 5
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And I also don't buy that 9-11 couldn't happen. All they have to do in DCU is plan to attack when they know someone else is keeping jla busy. They do that by having spies, like in Kobra.
---
Where did anyone say it couldn't happen? It could - but you'd have to "comicbook it up" like you did by involving Kobra (or Hydra, or A.I.M., or Juggernaut and Black Tom like above).
And Cap only punched Hitler on the covers, never in the story. And even if he HAD punched him in a story, there would have to be a way for Hitler to escape - Cap couldn't take him prisoner while he was still at large in the real world.
You can't have superheroes solve real world problems in their books that still exist in the real world. Mister Fantastic can't cure cancer; that would be really tacky. Dr. Fate can't weave a spell that says "no child will ever be abused again!" Superman can't solve the problems in the Middle East. He just... can't. Anyone that says he can doesn't know how superhero fiction works.
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Emery Calame
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5773
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| Posted: 03 May 2011 at 11:00pm | IP Logged | 6
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Wow that's an awfully muppety rendition of the Juggernaut. I'm sure glad the artist got all that weird spit going on behind the 60+ teeth though. I mean what if that hadn't been drawn? Probably people would have stopped buying comics or something. Silver Surfer? Meh. Cancel it! Not enough spit to make it worth my while.
Edited by Emery Calame on 03 May 2011 at 11:01pm
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Brad Krawchuk
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 June 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 5819
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| Posted: 03 May 2011 at 11:13pm | IP Logged | 7
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That McFarlane panel looks like it's from an anime or manga. Quick! Someone tell Nick Simmons to start swiping Todd!
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Glen Keith
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 July 2010
Location: United States
Posts: 851
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| Posted: 04 May 2011 at 5:02am | IP Logged | 8
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That’s the thing, New York routinely gets destroyed in the Marvel Universe. Hell, the whole city was wiped-out by the Sub-Mariner as far back as 1941! That’s why a direct depiction of a real life event should be avoided.
On the other hand, I’m perfectly fine with characters referencing an event (such as having Captain America bringing up 9-11 whilst fighting terrorist), which has been the more traditional way of handling such issues in Comics. Having Green Arrow TALK about troubles and strife during the 60’s is a far different thing than SHOWING those things happening on panel. Particularly if you place superheroes at those events. That’s the delicate balancing act that the creators, and we as readers, must learn to accept to keep these things sort of topical. We acknowledge that events in our world are reflected in the fictional ones, while ignoring what how superheroic intervention would have altered those events.
For instance, in comics published in the 1940’s, to the best of my recollection, most superheroes didn’t even engage in frontline combat in WWII, except on the covers. Even Captain America’s war-time exploits had him dealing more with spies and saboteurs, rather than, say, fighting in occupied France or island hopping in the Pacific. The later stories showing the Marvel (or DC for that matter) characters fighting behind enemy lines tend to be later additions to their histories.
Having Superman comment on unrest in the Middle East while working with a popular revolt in Khandiq to overthrow Black Adam’s oppressive regime would seem to be a better way of showing support for the Iranian protestors. Having him hovering above them as some sort of cheerleader while they engage in the protests, to me at least, seems kind of insulting.
Edited by Glen Keith on 04 May 2011 at 5:04am
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Garry Porter II
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 07 February 2011
Posts: 327
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| Posted: 04 May 2011 at 5:06am | IP Logged | 9
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If Waid, Morrison, Millard and Peyer would've gotten to do their
SUPERMAN 2000 revamp his powers would have tripled from the
post-JB levels.
**
I must admit that I am kind of happy that didn't happen. Waid and Peyer's run was lukewarm to me, and when I read an interview of when Grant Morrison remarked of wanting to have Superman move the moon out of orbit with his bare hands......I couldn't get into that.
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Michael Todd
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Joined: 07 September 2009
Location: United States
Posts: 4115
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| Posted: 04 May 2011 at 5:23am | IP Logged | 10
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QUOTE:
| Superman move the moon out of orbit with his bare hands |
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Oh Garry, that's nothing. Superboy once towed a whole string of planets. 
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Greg McPhee
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 August 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 5095
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| Posted: 04 May 2011 at 5:25am | IP Logged | 11
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This is from a recent interview with Greg Rucka about his taking over The Punisher and his views on real world elements in comics:
(edited to remove extensive quote - please use a link -- Tim)
Edited by Tim O'Neill on 04 May 2011 at 5:05pm
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Knut Robert Knutsen
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Joined: 22 September 2006
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| Posted: 04 May 2011 at 5:44am | IP Logged | 12
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"For instance, in comics published in the 1940’s, to the best of my recollection, most superheroes didn’t even engage in frontline combat in WWII, except on the covers." In one of his earliest ACTION or SUPERMAN appearances, Superman went to war, beat up and arrested both Hitler and Stalin, putting an end to the European portion of WWII and Stalin's contribution to the Cold War in a single issue. After that, how do you deal with any real world problem? Superheroes can't deal with real world problems because superheroes always have to win in the end, and winning over disease, poverty and war in fiction while they're still around in real life is a bummer. Far better to have Superman fight Lex Luthor's latest deathtrap (and I'm not even bein sarcastic).
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