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Brian Hague Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 November 2006 Posts: 8515
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Posted: 02 May 2011 at 10:58pm | IP Logged | 1
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Unfortunately, fixing the Marvels would, in the minds of current DC Editorial, necessitate another "Event," one in which countless iterations and sub-classifications of the Marvel family members all converge to somehow resurrect Shazam or sunder Freddy from the "Magic-Lightning-Force" or whatever... Another editor would rush in to hitch his Creeper revamp to that rising star, and another would sagaciously rub his chin, recognizing the theme of this New Event as "Reinvention" and begin making a list of characters DC must mix into this juicy stew... The New Internet-Age NewsBlog Legion!... Vartox's Hot Momma Replacement, Vertex!... Razor-clawed, badass Shrieky, the Super-Cat!... "My God!" they'll all begin to keen and shudder at the Editorial Retreat plotting session, "W-We can't fix these characters yet! There's still so many pieces left for them to be broken into!!!" Plus, as it turns out, fans, especially convention goers seem to really like the idea of Mary as a bad grrl in a tiny, pleated PVC mini-skirt. If that were undone, someone there would re-do it in a hot, Mister Mind-sized minute...
Edited by Brian Hague on 02 May 2011 at 10:59pm
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Brian Hague Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 November 2006 Posts: 8515
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Posted: 02 May 2011 at 11:02pm | IP Logged | 2
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Goyer's involvement in the Superman film has now rendered that a complete non-starter for me. Superman as a politically naive thumb-sucker casts no allure for me whatsoever.
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Knut Robert Knutsen Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 September 2006 Posts: 7374
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Posted: 03 May 2011 at 1:10am | IP Logged | 3
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I remember there were some pretty good pre-cris stories, as far back as the seventies, where Superman had to balance his moral support for certain causes with the knowledge that his superpowers and his need to seem neutral in order to be able to do the job of protecting the planet limited his ability to interfere. There was a story where an old Native American was protesting the building of a polluting factory on holy tribal land, and he was drawing magic coloured drawings in the sand to call on the spirits to protect the land. And seemingly they responded, with Superman stopping avalanches and earthquakes that resulted. Until it was decided to leave the land alone. Whereupon we learn that Superman has secretly been helping the old Native American by causing "the work of the spirits." The Pre-Crisis Superman would have gone in to the protests as Clark Kent, Foreign Correspondent, and might have used his powers more subtly to diffuse tensions and protect protesters. Going in there as Superman was just grandstanding where Superman might get credit for "sticking up for the protesters", but to some the protests would lose credibility and the government claim that it was all part of American agitation would be validated. That's the real reason it was a bad idea to go in publicly, and the real reason the Obama administration should ask him to stand down. And the reason I call the story politically naive.
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Garry Porter II Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 07 February 2011 Posts: 327
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Posted: 03 May 2011 at 3:10pm | IP Logged | 4
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I don't remember Superman being de-powered under those guys. The only time I remember seeing him bleed in a battle was with Doomsday.
** I didn't mean Superman being "de-powered" per se, that is, by a storyline where at the end of it, he comes out de-powered. The point i was making was that, to me, I felt he was interpreted or written as such from 1990-1992('92 being the year of Superman's "death") in particular. Example: In the Lobo vs. Superman battle we are discussing, Superman hardly lifted anything heavy to battle Lobo. Compare that to when Superman fought Orion on Apokolips or when Superman fought Quex-Ul during when JB was writing/drawing him. Many practical heavy things were lifted and hefted during those fights. Bodies were flown and the results of powerful punches were felt.
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During the 1990's, and you may not have liked all of the villains, but he fought some heavy hitters. Mongul, Doomsday, Draaga, Massacre and Cyborg Superman being a few.
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You're right Greg I'm not too crazy about the last 3 villains, and am still wondering about the first two(thought i used to like the first two). Heavy hittlers though, I'm not sure: Mongul: To me, the early 90's version of Mongul seemed weaker in spirit if not also sinew and physicality. He appeared to have no insight, very little(if any) ambition. And he lost Warworld, and I don't remember him ever getting it back during that time. But, the pre-crisis Mongul beat the pre-crisis Superman twice, with his bare hands. Doomsday: I think the character was poorly executed, but pretty much a one-off character. A one and done character. It should have been that one storyline with him and that should have been it.. But, every time Doomsday shows up concerning Superman, it further diminishes him as a heavy hitter. Draaga: To me, a poor man's Mongul, and I thought Mongul was weak at that time. Plus, we found out he was actually a nice guy, and he was killed during that storyline with Brainiac. Heavy hitter. nope Massacre: From what I remember, he showed up after Superman was brought back from the dead and Supes' powers were increased. he only made a full appearance in his debut issue and brief ones thereafter. To me, he didn't reach heavy hitter status. Cyborg "Superman": For me easily, the most frustrating character. I can't imagine, from the peculiar changes this character went through, to how he could wind up literally, physically fighting battalions of Green Lanterns at one time or even fighting Guardians of the Universe. Though he was lifted to that status, he is not a heavy hitter to me.
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In the battles with Lobo during "Day of the Krypton Man", Superman was under the influence of the Eradicator and was merciless. He engages in 3 battles with Lobo, Maxima and Draaga, and each is lucky to survive.
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Lobo: Superman only won, cause the Eradicator took over, if memory serves. IMO, it was Superman that was lucky to survive. Maxima: Although the Eradicator was starting to influence him, you are right. Superman was being nice to Maxima Draaga: He was "Mongul-lite". No match
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Glen Keith Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 July 2010 Location: United States Posts: 851
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Posted: 03 May 2011 at 3:12pm | IP Logged | 5
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What I think is politically naïve is superheroes dealing with real world politics, period!
I like that the world that superheroes live in is “the world outside your window,” however, when they interact too much in our real world, it just emphasizes the unreality of their world. Let’s face it, guys like Bin Laden, Hussein and Gaddafi are essentially real-life supervillians, and if superheroes actually existed in our world with their varied powers, it would behoove them to stop their dastardly deeds. And how could those guys hope to succeed when they are lightweight distractions compared to the likes of Darkseid and Lex Luthor? Besides, what’s wrong with addressing issues in an allegorical manor? Is it really necessary for Superman to interact with the real country of Iran when DC already has the fictional country of Qrac to represent the Middle East?
Edited by Glen Keith on 03 May 2011 at 3:13pm
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Emery Calame Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 5773
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Posted: 03 May 2011 at 4:30pm | IP Logged | 6
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DC also had Bialya (essentially Libya spelled wrong with an extra a tossed on )before Black Adam killed it.
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Eric Smearman Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 02 September 2006 Location: United States Posts: 5844
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Posted: 03 May 2011 at 4:50pm | IP Logged | 7
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And Khandaq. Ostensibly Black Adam's home country.
Edited by Eric Smearman on 03 May 2011 at 4:52pm
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Brad Krawchuk Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 June 2006 Location: Canada Posts: 5819
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Posted: 03 May 2011 at 5:02pm | IP Logged | 8
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Both DC and Marvel have fictitious nations where they can parallel what's happening in the real world in a fictional way. There's no way - NO WAY - there'd be real-world places like Iraq or Iran or the USSR or Rwanda or heck, even Nazi Germany in the fictional worlds of the Marvel or DCU.
The JLA, JSA, Avengers, Fantastic Four... they'd all mop the floor with guys like Bin Laden and Hussein and Hitler and Stalin. No contest.
The only way those places exist is to fictionalize them. So there were Nazis in the DCU, but the reason the JSA didn't stop them was Hitler had the Spear of Destiny and would be able to control them if they got too close. There was a Nazi Germany in the Marvel U, but they had guys like Zemo and Red Skull to counter the super-powered Allies like Cap, Namor, and the Human Torch.
Saddam Hussein may have existed in the Marvel or DCU, sure, but he'd have some kind of Vibranium-powered giant robots and/or he'd have The Injustice League or Marauders as bodyguards. There would have to be some comic book way to keep Green Lantern or Iron Man from just flying in and kicking his ass.
The USSR had the Rocket Reds guarding their borders, or Omega Red, or the Red Ghost, or the Abomination. They had Vandal Savage working with them for his own purposes, or they made an allegiance with Doom for some tech and test subjects to appease him so he wouldn't conquer them with Doombots.
The instant - the INSTANT - you put a truly superpowered being into a real world conflict... there's no conflict. Does anyone here think 9/11 could have really happened in the Marvel U or DCU without a supervillain behind it? And even if a few radical civilians managed such a caper - does anyone think Bin Laden and the entire Al-Quaeda network wouldn't have been captured within 24 hours by the Flash and Superman?
It's stupid. Comics are comics. Real life is real life. You can play with analogies, you can play with metaphors, you can play with real-world parallels... but you CANNOT play in the real world with superheroes!
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Greg McPhee Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 August 2004 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 5095
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Posted: 03 May 2011 at 5:30pm | IP Logged | 9
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It's stupid. Comics are comics. Real life is real life. You can play with analogies, you can play with metaphors, you can play with real-world parallels... but you CANNOT play in the real world with superheroes! ================================================== Exactly. SHIELD, Checkmate, and The Suicide Squad (heck even James Bond), would have mopped the floor with half of these nations before Superman, The Avengers or the JLA could have got involved. Bringing comics in to the real world does not work.
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Glen Keith Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 July 2010 Location: United States Posts: 851
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Posted: 03 May 2011 at 5:55pm | IP Logged | 10
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If 9-11 had occurred in either universe, maybe one plane could have reached it's target, but certainly not three! One of the many reasons that I thought Amazing Spider-Man #36 was ridiculous. I mean, if Friends didn't need to respond to 9-11, why did Spider-Man?
Edited by Glen Keith on 03 May 2011 at 6:23pm
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Greg McPhee Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 August 2004 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 5095
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Posted: 03 May 2011 at 6:33pm | IP Logged | 11
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Glen, As a one-off tribute issue to that horrible day, and the brave people who lost so much.
Edited by Greg McPhee on 03 May 2011 at 6:33pm
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Ronald Joseph Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 18 April 2011 Location: United States Posts: 1784
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Posted: 03 May 2011 at 6:34pm | IP Logged | 12
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If 9-11 had occurred in either universe, maybe one plane could have reached it's target, but certainly not three! With universes filled to the brim with telepaths, sorcerers supreme, time travellers, and even cross-time travellers, it'd be hard to imagine any disasters, natural or otherwise, ever occurring. 9/11 would have been halted before the planes even left the ground. The Holocaust, The Spanish Inquisition, The Salem Witch Trials, etc., as well. We'd probably wind up living in a world like the one portrayed in Minority Report, where crimes were stopped when they were nothing but passing thoughts or the vaguest plans in the mind of someone who may or may not even carry them out.
Edited by Ronald Joseph on 03 May 2011 at 6:35pm
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