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Kip Lewis
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Posted: 14 April 2011 at 7:15pm | IP Logged | 1  

and some of us have always had these kinds of discussions; suspension of disbelief doesn't mean you don't ask questions; it just means you enjoy it, but you can wonder too.
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Robert White
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Posted: 14 April 2011 at 7:45pm | IP Logged | 2  

I can tell you that even as a kid, I thought certain things about superhero comics (mostly older DC concepts) were silly or stupid. This is normal. Even JB, one of the genre's greatest "champions", has mentioned things that he finds silly or at the least conceptually weak over the years. 
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Jason Czeskleba
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Posted: 14 April 2011 at 8:10pm | IP Logged | 3  

 Josh Goldberg wrote:
Does anyone here know the actual history of the Wonder Woman comics back to the Forties?  Could she fly/glide on air currents from the begining?  If so, why did she even need the invisible plane?


She could glide on air currents from the very beginning, but my recollection is that in the forties this power only took the form of being able to leap from a high place and float downward.  She could jump out of a tall building or even an airplane and land safely, but she did not possess the ability to "take off" from the ground and glide upward using air currents.  It was only later that Kanigher turned the gliding ability into more or less pseudo-flying.

Looking over some old Marston stories, I see that the plane is referred to sometimes as "invisible" but other times as "transparent."  I suspect Marston really intended it to be the latter, given the way it was used in stories (there are occasions when criminals steal the plane for example, which would be virtually impossible if it was truly invisible).


Edited by Jason Czeskleba on 14 April 2011 at 8:11pm
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Eric Smearman
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Posted: 14 April 2011 at 8:26pm | IP Logged | 4  

A recent take on WW's invisible jet that I enjoyed was in the DVD
feature JUSTICE LEAGUE: CRISIS ON TWO EARTHS. From the
outside the jet is invisible as light is bent around it but is visible on the
inside.

(Edited to add: D'Oh! I missed an earlier post saying essentially the
same thing. Sorry.)

Edited by Eric Smearman on 14 April 2011 at 8:32pm

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Monte Gruhlke
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Posted: 14 April 2011 at 8:48pm | IP Logged | 5  

I thought that the reason she had an invisible plane was because it was "so freekin cool!"  Why question it? I know I still don't.

I agree that she is visible within the plane as a visual for us to relate to, kind of how the Invisible Girl/Woman was always shown as dashed lines, or Spider-Man's spidey sense squiggles, etc.


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Robert White
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Posted: 14 April 2011 at 8:49pm | IP Logged | 6  

Still, I've never read any explanation as to WHY she would have or need an invisible airplane. Sure, at one time she couldn't fly, but that didn't seem to be much of a bother for other heroes. It's also such an odd and unintentionally hilarious concept for a character with such strong mythological roots. 

What if Stan and Jack had decided to give Thor an opaque helicopter as his means of air travel? Would have made about as much sense.
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Jason Czeskleba
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Posted: 14 April 2011 at 10:38pm | IP Logged | 7  

Wonder Woman had mythological roots, but Marston's Amazons were also scientists and lots of gadgetry abounded in the early stories... most notably the mental radio (which allowed telepathic communication) and the purple ray.  A transparent (or invisible) plane which was totally silent and could fly much faster than a normal plane was just another such gadget.  And again, I think Marston intended it to be transparent, not invisible.  How is the plane "unintentionally hilarious" by the way?  As a kid, I thought it was cool.


Edited by Jason Czeskleba on 14 April 2011 at 10:40pm
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Robert White
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Posted: 15 April 2011 at 12:07am | IP Logged | 8  

Mainly the visual of Wonder Woman flying around in the seated position in what I imagined to me an invisible AND transparent plane. Also, since I grew up on the Perez Post-Crisis Wonder Woman with the heavy mythological roots, the plane never really had a place in my eyes. 

The fact that its become a euphemism for "self-gratification" sort of says it all...
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Rob Ocelot
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Posted: 15 April 2011 at 1:56am | IP Logged | 9  


 QUOTE:
<Robert White> What if Stan and Jack had decided to give Thor an opaque helicopter as his means of air travel? Would have made about as much sense.


Yet if Kirby had put an opaque copter in Thor the readers likely would have accepted it!   No one seemed to complain when Thor deviated from the Old Norse source material for a host of other stuff, a lot of which didn't make a lick of sense but sure was entertaining.

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Jason Czeskleba
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Posted: 15 April 2011 at 12:03pm | IP Logged | 10  

 Robert White wrote:
The fact that its become a euphemism for "self-gratification" sort of says it all...


I have no idea what you mean by this. 

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Matt Hawes
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Posted: 15 April 2011 at 3:44pm | IP Logged | 11  

 Jesus Garcia wrote:
...I'm probably infantile for thinking this but I always figured Wonder Woman was drawn visible when inside the plane for the reader's benefit...


I thought about it like that, too.
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Brian Hague
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Posted: 16 April 2011 at 8:41pm | IP Logged | 12  

A common mistake being made here is the assumption that Wonder Woman was created to exist in a world with other super-heroes.

She was not created to be weaker than Superman. She was created by individuals who had a different take on how "super-strength" would play out in their stories. The question, "Should she fly?" did not likely arise because almost no one at that time was flying. Hawkman maybe. Superman himself was still in his earliest stages and leaping from place to place (although with some wonky physics in play to allow him to steer, slow down, or go back up again at times.)

It is unlikely Marston or Mayer ever said, "Let's not have her fly like that fellow Superman does... She should definitely be less than him in that respect, and many others besides..." Marston wouldn't have created a woman he deemed "less than" some other male counterpart.

Marston was creating a story of an empassioned female supremacist sent to our world to impose peaceful and loving values upon a society apparently in dire need of them. World War II was central to her origin and most of the stories he was writing about her at that stage of the game. 

That so many here cannot see the value and inventiveness of an invisible aircraft during a time of war knocks me for a bit of a loop. Yes, she could glide from place to place, but in her origin story, she had to fly from her island home to Washington D.C. with an injured man as her passenger. How is accomplished through gliding? "Well, if she could fly like Superman..." Superman did not fly like Superman at the time! He would only begin flying a couple of years later in the Fleischer cartoons.

"Okay, but after she joined the Justice Society, then she should have seen that she was a non-flying wimp..." No member of the Justice Society immediately began comparing notes against the others and making drastic changes in their own titles to "match" their fellow members or the foes they were fighting (except Sandman and that looks more like Simon and Kirby simply giving the editor a hero just like all the others from the Simon and Kirby shop.) Batman did not come home from a JSA adventure and say to Alfred, "There's life on Mars. Apparently, the men there keep the women imprisoned inside pumpkin shells, or at least they did until that short, Clara Bow-looking gal I told you about earlier challenged their king, P'Ter P'Ter, to a boxing match... To the gym, Alfred! I need to study up on Martian boxing techniques!"

Titles used to exist in their own little universes. Even meeting up with other heroes did not mean that the books were all suddenly interactive with one another, nor should they have been. Wonder Woman met Martians who were specific to the themes and stories Marston was writing. He did not and certainly would not have been expected to create Martians who would be exactly like those Martians that might one day meet Batman. Or Superman. Or, oh, hey, we might buy up Captain Marvel forty years from now, so make sure those Martians are exactly the sort of Martains he might fight as well...

That way lies creative desolation. No story is about anything except how well it matches up with everybody else's story which are also about nothing. Titles can no longer exist in their own world. There can be no funny-world heroes, unless they're nutso, wacky jobbers that the "more serious" heroes look sideways at. The idea of a hero living inside his own funny world, one uniquely envisioned and created by someone with their own voice and viewpoint is gone. You cannot have a hero whose world is one of constant light-hearted wonder. Maybe the hero can be light-hearted, but the world in which he lives? Sorry.

Funny hero and Light-Hearted Hero have to work alongside Grim Hero this month. Grim Hero's city has just been demolished and Grim Hero is angry because he's still on fire. He's sworn the fire all over his body and in his heart will burn until the last fire threatening the lives of the citizenry in his beloved city has been extinguished. And then in next month's "Population X-Plosion Chapter Eleven" they all have to cross over with Space Bastich, Single Mother, DeathSprocket, ElasiBot, PVC-Cup, and Forensic Pathologist Chimp, so just write something that fits all of those guys...

Oh, and get rid of that damned invisible plane! That's just stupid!

 

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