calling himself "Joe Zhang" is probably posting here today.

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You mean Rod Odom?

So, this topic has me looking at the run again, and lamenting what might have been.

It also got me thinking--

JB planned on bringing back a Hulk who really hadn't been seen since the original 60s run. Some would argue that was a "finding" period for the character, and that the savage, "Hulk Smash!" version is the real deal (and they'd have a point, since that version was around for a solid 20 years or so).

I love 'em both--I grew up with back issues featuring the classic savage Hulk, but I also fell totally in love with the original six issues when I got the Marvel Masterworks volume as a kid.

Both versions have a lot of interesting dramatic meat to them.

1. The early Hulk works well, because Banner is a very prominent figure, rather than being the boring guy we just want to see Hulk-Out. The early Banner wanted to play superhero, basically--he thought he could control this primal power and use it for mankind's benefit. Of course, the Hulk's innate brutality would peek out from time to time. It appears that the Hulk is inherently a creature of rage, even under circumstances when Banner is seemingly in control.

One problem of this version (which I'm sure JB had an answer for) is that the Hulk was tied to a specific location--he needed the gamma ray machine in the cave to change back and forth. That limited story possibilities somewhat.

2. The classic "Hulk smash!" version had a somewhat more flexible format--Banner turns into the Hulk, a savage monster with his own personality and memories--when he gets angry or excited. Of course, the TV version followed this formula. With this version, the Hulk is truly a menace, and Banner's goal is to be cured, rather than to control the power. There's also a lot of nice, allegorical content--Banner's like an alcoholic who can only vaguely remember what he's done while "intoxicated", and his struggle to maintain control and not turn into the Hulk makes one think about the unhealthy repression of anger.

There's also the nice (unintentional?) notion that Banner cannot fully express his emotions (for fear of becoming the Hulk), while the Hulk can't find the peace he seeks (or else he'll turn back into Banner and cease to exist).

Certainly, we got many years of stories from # 2 (and the TV series, which was virtually the same, at its core), but I still think there's a lot of potential to be mined from #1. If only, JB, if only--!

And, of course, Peter David reaped the rewards of JB's set-up, using a number of the same ideas (Banner--under the Hulk's subconscious influence--willingly becoming the Hulk again to deal with a menace, etc.), but he took the psychology of the character in a very different direction, using Mantlo's childhood abuse angle (which JB apparently ignored) as a starting point.

JB's Hulk seems much in line with Lee and Kirby's original--the Hulk is a separate being formed out of Banner's rage--different from Banner, yet still connected. Thus, even when Banner is seemingly in control of the Hulk, the Hulk's innate rage is in there, waiting to burst out.

David, of course, slowly developed the MPD angle, and, although the early gray Hulk of his run superficially resembles the "angry Banner" version of the original run (in that he talks like a thug, etc.--and David later retconned the early "angry Banner" version into the gray Hulk persona asserting its dominance), the gray Hulk is essentially Banner's nasty, crude teenage emotions given its own persona, whereas the classic green Hulk was the raging inner child.

All things considered, I really like Lee and Kirby's original version (with Banner trying to stay in control, but his inner rage bubbling out), but the classic savage version is a formula that really worked for a long time.

So hard to choose a favorite!

I think one of the best ideas JB mentioned in that article's quotes was the idea of the original Kirby Hulk being controlled by Banner, as long as Banner released him regularly. Because if Banner DIDN'T, the Hulk would come out as a berserker, submerging Banner's intellect. Very interesting.

What I miss from the old Hulk hiding in the caves under New Mexico and Banner struggling to control that power is the tension inherent in the struggle. At that time, and presumably what JB was seeking to return to, was that the Hulk WAS Banner and vice versa. They weren't two seperate beings, but nor was the Hulk a psychological construct. The Hulk is literally Banner unleashed, unrestrained. Instead of the Hulk being a result of trauma from childhood, the Hulk is every man's inner rage, his Neanderthal survival instinct made flesh.

The idea of a brilliant scientist determined to put that instinct and power to good use is a theme that is slightly more interesting than Banner-as-victim, suffering from the Hulk's savage emergence at any moment.

And I've forever associated the Hulk with New Mexico. It was great for the Hulk to have his own territory. And everyone in the MU knew it! If you came to New Mexico looking for the Hulk, you were gonna find him and his big green fists!

I think I once mentioned that the Hulk had my favorite comic book HQ, in those caves. He's like Batman in that regard.

If I ever had a chance, I'd turn the Hulk into that gruff behemoth in New Mexico in a heartbeat. He's wildly intriguing.

At that time, and presumably what JB was seeking to return to, was that the Hulk WAS Banner and vice versa. They weren't two seperate beings, but nor was the Hulk a psychological construct.The Hulk is literally Banner unleashed, unrestrained. Instead of the Hulk being a result of trauma from childhood, the Hulk is every man's inner rage, his Neanderthal survival instinct made flesh.

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I'd modify that appraisal slightly--the ORIGINAL Hulk, as seen in the first three issues, has only dim memories of Banner, and malicious intent toward humanity. He comes off as a truly Hyde-like persona--a separate being formed out of Banner's darker emotions, and yet is still connected to Banner's psyche. While he seems to sorta kinda self-identify as Banner when he sees the photo in Banner's cabin, it seems more as if he has some limited access to Banner's memories than anything else.

That version doesn't really come across to me as a mean version of Banner. It's not like he's a "drunk" Banner--the early Hulk's personality, goals, and attitudes are totally opposed to Banner's. The Hulk is Banner's anger made flesh--forever raging against the world, prizing power over reason, and despising the weak.

And, of course, in his very first appearance, the Hulk voices his hatred of Banner. I suppose you could say that Banner suffers from self-loathing of some sort--which is expressed through the Hulk--, but the Hulk is really contemptuous of Banner because he's weak, whereas the Hulk values power above all else. There's also the notion--as held forth in JB's run--that Banner continues to exist as a prisoner within the Hulk, a seperate persona that is submerged during the transformation. Heck, Banner even committed psychic "suicide" during Mantlo's run, while the Hulk remained active (albeit mindless).

Anyway, when Banner finally gains control in TIH # 4, the dynamic from that point on seems to be that Banner is struggling to maintain control as the Hulk because the Hulk's innate rage/persona is trying to break free. As a result we get a "tainted" Banner/Hulk, a Hulk who mostly thinks and acts like Banner, but is a nastier version of Banner. Not so much Banner unleashed as Banner fighting to suppress the Hulk's natural rage.

The other thing that sounds great is the idea that Banner would in fact kill/destroy the green Hulk. Then re-expose himself to Gamma Rays to become this new Hulk that (he assumed) he could control.

If JB had stayed on the book without all the editorial interferance I think it's possible that JB would be more renowned for his Hulk work than even his Fantastic Four run.

If JB had stayed on the book without all the editorial interferance I think it's possible that JB would be more renowned for his Hulk work than even his Fantastic Four run.

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Agreed. A number of really interesting plotlines are hinted at in the issues that were completed:

Despite being portrayed as a totally mindless Hulk which should be destroyed, the story that ended up in FANFARE hints that Samson may have been right--underneath the rage, the "mindless" Hulk may have had the potential to be trained and educated. I get the impression that this would provide a bit of pathos for the Hulk--perhaps only we readers would know that he wasn't entirely a mindless beast...and then he gets killed! Or, perhaps Samson himself would have realized this at the last minute, only to see the Hulk get killed.

Certainly, there was some major tension building between Samson and Banner/the Hulkbusters--Samson even threatened Banner after the Hulkbusters interfered with his obsessive Hulk-hunt--and this was after he went to all that trouble to "rescue" Banner from the Hulk..

Also, I really wonder how the Banner-Betty dynamic would have gone after Banner became the "New Hulk". I doubt she'd be happy about it! Yet, JB noted in interviews of the period that Betty would essentially fill the Rick Jones role--serving as Banner's confidante, and even locking him in the underground vault. Very interesting--you'd think that Betty would be extremely leery of Banner becoming even a "safe" Hulk. After all, the last time this happened (in Mantlo's run), the Hulk ended up going berserk and was banished to the Crossroads.

Of course, in David's subsequent run, Betty was NOT happy about Banner becoming the Hulk again (after seemingly being cured during Milgrom's run), and was even less thrilled to learn that Banner had willing turned himself into the Hulk back in the old days to battle menaces.

I was surprised to know that if JB had his way, that the Hulk would have stayed green.
And to understand the version of the Hulk that was used in the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe...
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Yeah, I figured that out myself a few years ago--and the New Hulk also appears on the covers of the various magazines cited in the article--AMAZING HEROES, COMICS INTERVIEW, etc. He even seems to appear on the "farewell" page of ALPHA FLIGHT # 28 (in shadow).

In retrospect, it's rather obvious--all of those drawings are very much in the Kirby-Ayers vein--and look totally different from the Buscema-esque, bodybuilder-style Hulk JB drew in the first few issues of his run.

Gotta say that I'm also a big fan of that early Kirby Hulk--he's just so massive-looking (without being huge) and brutish!