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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133279
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| Posted: 21 March 2011 at 10:55am | IP Logged | 1
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morrison fired back a reply(when asked the by interviewer), and stated how he talked to the creator of doom patrol (arnold drake, before his passing), and how mr. drake praised his run, and said it is very much in tune of what he intended the series to be.so i guess, at least in the minds of grant morrison and his fans, the fact the creator praised his stories and continuity justifies his doom patrol stories. •• Whether or not a creator praises or condemns a project often has little or nothing to do with how many fans perceive it. Stan Lee sang the praises of the Dolf Lundgren PUNISHER movie, and all that got him was fans dismissing him as a corporate whore.* Ann Rice condemned and then applauded the casting of Tom Cruise as her vampire Lestat, and neither seemed to have much effect on the box office. The bottom line, it seems to me, is that fans will pay heed to what the creators say only if they AGREE with what the creators say. (Consider the recent mini-kerfuffle in the NEXT MEN threads over whether or not Danny was "really" dead!) --- * I know Stan did not create the Punisher, but he was voicing the official Marvel line.
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Tom French
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 07 January 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 4154
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| Posted: 21 March 2011 at 11:07am | IP Logged | 2
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...the casting of Tom Cruise as her vampire Lestat Worst. Choice. Ever.
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Brian Joseph Mayer
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 10 December 2009
Location: United States
Posts: 1135
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| Posted: 21 March 2011 at 11:17am | IP Logged | 3
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Only until Ann Rice saw her paycheck, then she changed her tune from being the biggest critic of the choice to declaring it inspired casting.
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Garry Porter II
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 07 February 2011
Posts: 327
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| Posted: 21 March 2011 at 5:39pm | IP Logged | 4
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Whether or not a creator praises or condemns a project often has little or nothing to do with how many fans perceive it. Stan Lee sang the praises of the Dolf Lundgren PUNISHER movie, and all that got him was fans dismissing him as a corporate whore.* Ann Rice condemned and then applauded the casting of Tom Cruise as her vampire Lestat, and neither seemed to have much effect on the box office. The bottom line, it seems to me, is that fans will pay heed to what the creators say only if they AGREE with what the creators say. (Consider the recent mini-kerfuffle in the NEXT MEN threads over whether or not Danny was "really" dead!) *********************** yeah i see your point JB. good examples of this was when morrison was patting himself on the back for arnold drake's praise, and how i immediately thought the opposite. this was the one time where i thought the creator of doom patrol was wrong. when morrison cited drake's praise, i thought to how morrison's doom patrol was just plain weird and hard to understand. very arrogant. and how drake's(the creator's) was weird, yes, but a different "weird", as in a Super-Hero type of way. that's when i thought something was the matter with me, cause i wondered how can i disagree with the creator. another example of this, lo these many years ago, was sometime in the early nineties or late eighties, when i read where an interviewer asked stan lee about the watchmen series(it was a few years old by then), and stan lee praising watchmen, remarking to the interviewer how watchmen is how comic books or superhero comics should be done. now, eventhough i read maybe the first 4 issues of watchmen back to back (and found it boring), and then skipped through the rest of the series to number 12, i knew enough about the series to disagree with stan lee, as a fan. that was one of the very few times(maybe the only time i can remember) that i ever disagreed with stan lee. but, again i thought something was wrong with me for disagreeing with mr. lee about this particular subject.
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Dave Aikins
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 31 July 2007
Location: United States
Posts: 2110
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| Posted: 21 March 2011 at 9:22pm | IP Logged | 5
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I loved Morrison's run on Doom Patrol. I was in high-school at the time, and it was the perfect book for a pretentious mopey artsy fartsy 16 year old. I always loved the Doom Patrol, and quite frankly, was soooo happy that the book was actually interesting! it wasn't the classic Doom Patrol- they blew up real good. So bring the crazy...Heck, I couldn't have cared less if it was in continuity. it was great! That was the Morrison I loved. Crazy messed up crap like the Brotherhood of Dada and Danny the Street.
but then again, I remind you that my review is from that of a pretentious mopey artsy fartsy 16 year old. Some things from those days stand the test of time, some don't. I'd have to sit down and re-read then to have a newer opinion, and that ain't gonna happen anytime soon. So, I'll have to stick to my "thumbs up" from 20+ years ago...
I gave up on Doom Patrol after that. I had the original stories, and then I had Morrison's "Doom Patrol at Art School". That was enough for me...
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Agapito Qhelas
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 09 July 2009
Posts: 263
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| Posted: 21 March 2011 at 9:43pm | IP Logged | 6
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QUOTE:
| that's when i thought something was the matter with me, cause i wondered how can i disagree with the creator. |
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There is nothing really wrong about that. Thousands of fans dislike the changes made to Star Wars, The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi, even though they are a result of the wishes of their creator, George Lucas. There are many examples like that, and disagreeing with a creator doesn't mean there is something inherently wrong with that. That Arnold Drake believed Morrison's Doom Patrol was the only one who really captured the essence and spirit of what he was doing only means that he believes that, not that everyone should agree with it.
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Flavio Sapha
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: Brazil
Posts: 12912
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| Posted: 21 March 2011 at 9:53pm | IP Logged | 7
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Same as Dave.
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Ed Love
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 October 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 2712
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| Posted: 22 March 2011 at 6:59am | IP Logged | 8
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It's important to note that Drake didn't define what it was that Morrison was doing "right" and everyone else was doing wrong. Drake didn't mind that Morrison retconned his whole work as he made the Chief a lying sociopath which substantially changes the meaning of Drake's stories and the relationships with the rest of the team. It wasn't about weirdness, because if that was Drake's intent, then his work was a failure. The DP didn't hold a candle to other DC books for weirdness. What set it apart was its realism of characters and motivation.
I think Drake may be one of the types that values newness, creativity, and originality over actual story and content. He is looking at the Art of the thing, not the Story.
One thing the two DP's share is redefining the concept of what and who is a superhero. People compare it to the FF and for good reason. The DP was not like other DC superheroes. The powers came at a cost, they were a curse. They were motivated out of need and co-dependency of wanting to belong. They could act selfishly and petty. General Immortus was motivated out of fear of death. Mento gave himself powers to win the heart of a girl, who doesn't identify with that? The relative realism and sophistication of characters and motivation set them apart.
Other incarnations got the spirit of family, the tragic or outcast heroes, more sophisticated character development, etc., but the problem was that it was no longer new or different. That style and sensibiiity had caught up with the rest of the industry. Morrison's take is like Drake's in that he doesn't write the book like every other book on the stands. In the world of modern DC, what kind of character would truly be considered an outcast, what would really challenge the idea of who and what could be a superhero? How do I make the book truly different than other books on the stands? He opted for weirdness and nightmare visions. For hermaphrodite heroes and heroes with mental illness.
So, it doesn't matter to Drake that it trashed what he did. What he did is now old hat, yesterday's news. Those that try to honor that are just tired retreads. Morrison's was New and different from everything else. It's Art as opposed to art.
It's an attitude I disagree with, especially when concerning serial fiction, shared universes, and working with other people's characters and concepts. But, it is an attitude that many have, especially those concerned with Art with the the capital "A", both fans and creators. And, unless you recognize the difference, when a Story person and an Art person are discussing the value of a work, the discussion is often heated because despite you both talking about the same work, you're talking about two entirely different things.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133279
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| Posted: 22 March 2011 at 8:14am | IP Logged | 9
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(Morrison's version) wasn't the classic Doom Patrol- they blew up real good.•• Actually (!), by the time Morrison arrived, only Rita was still dead from that explosion. Typical of the misogyny so rampant at DC, then and now. ++ So bring the crazy... •• My biggest problem with the Morrison/Brit Invasion version of DOOM PATROL. Seemed like there was crazy just for the sake of crazy. Crazy as in "Hey! Look how KA-RAAAAAZY we are!" Images in my head of people smoking dope and discovering universes in the molecules of their fingernails. When we got to the sentient street, I was done.
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William Lukash
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 May 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 1405
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| Posted: 22 March 2011 at 8:23am | IP Logged | 10
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Was it ever explained how the Brotherhood survived the bombing by Madam Rouge?
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Dana Smith
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 187
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| Posted: 22 March 2011 at 11:08am | IP Logged | 11
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Yes...In The New Teen Titans.
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Dave Aikins
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 31 July 2007
Location: United States
Posts: 2110
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| Posted: 22 March 2011 at 2:11pm | IP Logged | 12
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"My biggest problem with the Morrison/Brit Invasion version of DOOM PATROL. Seemed like there was crazy just for the sake of crazy. Crazy as in "Hey! Look how KA-RAAAAAZY we are!" Images in my head of people smoking dope and discovering universes in the molecules of their fingernails.When we got to the sentient street, I was done."
Which is why, I think, the book was perfect for the age that I was at the time. I was more then happy for "crazy for KA-RAAAAAAAZY's sake". Dada comics? yes please. Self aware characters? Sure!!! Just like Pirandello's Six Characters in Search of an Author! Woo Hoo Animal man!!! Any other existentialism or whatever we can through in? KOOL. I. Loved. It. Turn on the Cure and any 4AD records and get mopey... Funny thing was, there were other writes at the time (Milligan, Pollack) that couldn't pull off this style of comics writing. I felt that Morrison could. But you go through a phase of liking that, and then you move on...
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Topic Closed)
