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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133324
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| Posted: 04 August 2010 at 11:36am | IP Logged | 1
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Let me add, as one of the creators of this story, that it is especially frustrating that it can no longer be read IN CONTEXT. It's like trying to watch STAR WARS without any awareness of what came after. The death of Phoenix was a Big Deal because of how, when and why it happened. Remove any of those elements, and it becomes something that is canonized because it's SUPPOSED to be, not because it DESERVES to be.
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Charles Valderrama
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4830
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| Posted: 04 August 2010 at 11:44am | IP Logged | 2
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From a greed standpoint i can understand - but i can't help but see a lingering admiration for the body of work that came from the DARK PHOENIX saga. (To me, that includes the "how, when and why it happened.") What came after only ruined the experience for me.
-C!
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Keith Thomas
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 06 April 2009
Location: United States
Posts: 3082
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| Posted: 04 August 2010 at 11:47am | IP Logged | 3
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Did you do that Classic X-men cover before or after you read the back-up stories CC wrote for those issues?
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Donald Miller
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 03 February 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 3601
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| Posted: 04 August 2010 at 12:01pm | IP Logged | 4
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Still, must be flattering to have such a collection reprinted so many times!•• Nope. I wish the whole thing could be forgotten, and Marvel and fandom could MOVE ON.
Interesting that you feel this way...I think I understand.
Marvel keeps revisiting the death, not only in the form of almost constant reprints, but references in the pages and reiterations of Jean dying time and again...and in so doing water down what to me is a truly iconic love story...for me every bit as powerful as Peter an Gwen.
I will say that after seeing X-men 3 (I know what was I thinking) I was so angry and resentful that my daughter asked why it bothered me so....
I did my best to explain to her what the original story meant to me...and then I just let her loose on the original books...took her a while to make it all the way through...but after reading the whole story of Jean and Scott up until the funeral...she got it...and agreed with me...iconic love for the ages.
I don't care how it happened...but I thank you again for creating something that i could share with my children as an example of what kind impact true love can have...and the selfless lengths that one might go to.
Edited by Donald Miller on 04 August 2010 at 12:02pm
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Tim O Neill
Byrne Robotics Security
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 10937
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| Posted: 04 August 2010 at 12:47pm | IP Logged | 5
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JB: "Let me add, as one of the creators of this story, that it is especiallyfrustrating that it can no longer be read IN CONTEXT. It's like tryingto watch STAR WARS without any awareness of what came after. The deathof Phoenix was a Big Deal because of how, when and why it happened.Remove any of those elements, and it becomes something that iscanonized because it's SUPPOSED to be, not because it DESERVES to be"
***
I have long thought that rather than constantly reprinting, they should do an annotated version to give it that context. That would have been a better way to mark 30 years - by giving old and new readers perspective on the story.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 04 August 2010 at 1:26pm | IP Logged | 6
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Nothing could really give it context, Tim. There's no way to be TOLD how it felt when 137 came out. Remember, that issue was a surprise even to those of us who worked on it!If -- IF -- this story had, indeed, been forgotten, and someone in a nostalgic mood up at Marvel decided to do a cheap-o 30th Anniversary reprint, their might be some whisper of a chance of an unfamiliar reader getting that "Holy sh*t!!" reaction that was all over fandom in 1980. But the whole story of Phoenix has been run thru the grinder so many times it's become its own cliché.
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Peter Martin
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 March 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 15953
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| Posted: 04 August 2010 at 4:17pm | IP Logged | 7
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It is a little like Marvel and their writers have done everything they can to reduce the potency, the sheer impact, of this storyline. First, they brought her back -- which we all secretly forgave because we loved Jean so damn much -- but that inadvertently caused so much collateral damage, that I'm not sure it was worth it. Then the second time they killed Jean Grey they properly screwed the pooch. Along with the other endless deaths and reincarnations in the X-world. There were rules that defined impact in the MU: immutable story points carved into the heart of every Marvel zombie that should have remained sacrosanct. Along with Bucky Barnes, Sharon Carter, Ben Parker and Gwen Stacy, I think Jean Grey was one of those characters that should have stayed dead... and along with a lot of those, by that not being the case the Marvel Universe lost a lot of its credibility.
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Matthew McCallum
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Joined: 03 July 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 2711
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| Posted: 04 August 2010 at 4:22pm | IP Logged | 8
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Assuming for a moment the secret could be kept, that a book could arrive at the comic stores Wednesday afternoon with no prior warning, no fanfare, no pre-marketing -- What story could you possibly tell today that would have the same gut-wrenching impact, of stunned disbelief, of high quality as the Death of Phoenix?
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Bill Cox
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Joined: 03 November 2004
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| Posted: 05 August 2010 at 7:52am | IP Logged | 9
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Congrats on this story's 30 anniversary! I remember reading the Dark Phoenix saga as it was published, and it was quite a shocker. I was pissed at what happened to Jean -- a character who you actually got to care about as the story came to its climax. But it was a fantastic story. Normally when a lead character gets killed off I would think, "oh, well, its a comic book, they will bring that character back sooner or later". But, somehow I knew this was different. I didn't think she would ever come back. I stuck with the X-Men maybe a year after #136 -- just to see how the X-Men would handle her death (and to see if she was indeed coming back). I left the title and didn't bother with comics until a couple of years into college. Then I heard that the original X-Men would be coming back in a new title and Marvel Girl was going to be part of it. The story of Jean's "resurrection" was a bit of a disappointment. Learning that the character in those issues of the X-Men wasn't really Jean seemed like a cheat. I guess the editorial decision that Jean had to die because she killed a whole solar system that housed the Asparagus people from Avengers #4 still held -- although I never understood how (editorially) Galactus could get away with mass murder and Jean couldn't. JB, during the process of developing the story of bringing Jean back for X-Factor, did you consider preserving the integrity of Jean as Phoenix -- and possibly gotten away with brining in a parallel universe Jean or a clone (ala Gwen Stacy) and have her join X-Factor?
Edited by Bill Cox on 05 August 2010 at 7:53am
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 05 August 2010 at 8:56am | IP Logged | 10
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I never understood how (editorially) Galactus could get away with mass murder and Jean couldn't.•• Then you haven't been paying attention. Galactus is a force of nature, above good and evil. Phoenix, at least as originally presented, was evil. === JB, during the process of developing the story of bringing Jean back for X-Factor, did you consider preserving the integrity of Jean as Phoenix -- and possibly gotten away with brining in a parallel universe Jean or a clone (ala Gwen Stacy) and have her join X-Factor? •• No. The mechanics of Jean's return, as played, made for a clean break. Phoenix was not Jean, only a perfect copy of Jean, and so Jean was absolved of any responsibilities for the actions of Phoenix. No chance of someone coming along and saying "Hey! Isn't she still guilty of murdering all the Asparagus People?" Not when the story was first done, anyway. These day, Dog knows!
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Bill Cox
Byrne Robotics Member
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| Posted: 05 August 2010 at 9:55am | IP Logged | 11
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I understand all that about Galactus being a force of nature...but I didnt realize that the "powers that were" at Marvel during that time also understood that...as this all took place before your Trial of Reed storyline. Thanks John!
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 05 August 2010 at 11:52am | IP Logged | 12
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I understand all that about Galactus being a force of nature...but I didnt realize that the "powers that were" at Marvel during that time also understood that...as this all took place before your Trial of Reed storyline. •• It was Stan Lee who long ago established that Galactus is "above good and evil".
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