| Author |
|
Ted Pugliese
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 December 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 7985
|
| Posted: 15 July 2010 at 9:33pm | IP Logged | 1
|
|
|
Darn it Al, I just got a new Canada penny folder today and was going to ask you to help me get Canadian pennies. What was it that offended you? Seriously.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
| www
|
| |
Koroush Ghazi
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 October 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 1698
|
| Posted: 15 July 2010 at 9:39pm | IP Logged | 2
|
|
|
Ted Pugliese wrote:
| You are either for freedom or against it. |
|
|
Except that "Freedom" is completely misunderstood these days to mean "Doing whatever the hell I want". This is one of the quotes about Freedom which I really like and agree with:
QUOTE:
True Liberty is not the power of doing what we like, but the right of being able to do what we ought. Liberty without responsibility leads to decadence and decline. And when we abuse our freedom, we will lose it. In order to remain free we must each govern ourselves.
- Lord Acton |
|
|
The general rule I abide by is that we should be free to do what we want as long as it does not hurt anyone else or infringe upon their rights. The simple problem with gun ownership is that it does infringe upon other peoples' rights - my right not to be accidentally shot by you just because you happen to be drunk and decide to fire off that gun you're carrying with you; or if I get into a fist fight with you and you decide to settle it with a lethal weapon; or your incompetence in securing your gun results in more guns which fall into the hands of criminals, which in turn endangers me, etc.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
e-mail
|
| |
Ted Pugliese
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 December 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 7985
|
| Posted: 15 July 2010 at 9:40pm | IP Logged | 3
|
|
|
The general rule I abide by is that we should be free to do what wewant as long as it does not hurt anyone else or infringe upon theirrights.
I agree totally.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
| www
|
| |
Brad Krawchuk
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 June 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 5814
|
| Posted: 15 July 2010 at 9:41pm | IP Logged | 4
|
|
|
As long as I have the right to keep and bear arms, then you should have the right to say you don't like it. Similarly, if a man has the right to live with and sleep with another man, then someone else should have the right to say they don't like it.
---
So if your gun goes off in the privacy of your bedroom and goes through a window, across the street, through another window, and kills a sleeping kid, that's totally cool. Because if the gay guy's gun went off, in his boyfriend, in the privacy of their bedroom, that kid across the street would be killed by the gayness of it all.
Yep, those are totally equal things!
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
e-mail
|
| |
Ted Pugliese
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 December 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 7985
|
| Posted: 15 July 2010 at 9:45pm | IP Logged | 5
|
|
|
You forgot this part (from above):
But the minute you shoot someone or murder them or try to murder them,i.e. infringe upon someone else's right to life and liberty, is theminute you forfeit your rights. But until you do that, having a gun isno worse than a man sleeping with another man.
You worote:
The simple problem with gun ownership is that it does infringe uponother peoples' rights - my right not to be accidentally shot by youjust because you happen to be drunk and decide to fire off that gunyou're carrying with you;
Is this any different than getting killed by a drunk driver?
Should bars be illegal? Should alcohol be illegal?
We tried that. It did not work. It just helped a lot of people get real rich tax free.
What about smoking? I don't smoke. Now that smoking is not allowed inside, I have to walk through clouds of it to get into places. Deadly. Should it be illegal?
Accidents and criminal activity cannot be prevented by gun laws. They only hinder freedom.
Edited by Ted Pugliese on 15 July 2010 at 10:25pm
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
| www
|
| |
Ted Pugliese
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 December 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 7985
|
| Posted: 15 July 2010 at 9:47pm | IP Logged | 6
|
|
|
Same thing, Brad. Maybe alcohol and cars should both be illegal since so many people are killed accidentally each year.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
| www
|
| |
Brad Krawchuk
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 June 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 5814
|
| Posted: 15 July 2010 at 9:47pm | IP Logged | 7
|
|
|
Accidents and criminal activity cannot be prevented by gun laws. They only hinder freedom.---
Murder and rape aren't prevented by laws against murder and rape either. They only hinder freedom.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
e-mail
|
| |
Ted Pugliese
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 December 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 7985
|
| Posted: 15 July 2010 at 9:51pm | IP Logged | 8
|
|
|
Maybe cigarettes should be illegal. They probably kill more people than guns, and cars, and alcohol combined.
People think they have the right to smoke, that it only affects them. Shouldn't we protect them from themselves? Shouldn't we protect ourselves from the costs of their health care?
Maybe we should outlaw steak knives too.
Seriously, is it about restricting accidents and deaths or liberty. The whole point of my rant was to try to get you focused on the matter at hand. It isn't guns. It's freedom and liberty, of thought and action.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
| www
|
| |
Ted Pugliese
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 December 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 7985
|
| Posted: 15 July 2010 at 9:53pm | IP Logged | 9
|
|
|
Murder and rape aren't prevented by laws against murder and rape either. They only hinder freedom.
Oh please, could you try harder to miss the point.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
| www
|
| |
Ted Pugliese
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 December 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 7985
|
| Posted: 15 July 2010 at 9:55pm | IP Logged | 10
|
|
|
We are talking about the freedom to own a gun, to keep it, and use it when necessary, e.g. to defend yourself or family. We are not talking about the freedom to shoot people. Two entirely different things.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
| www
|
| |
Koroush Ghazi
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 October 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 1698
|
| Posted: 15 July 2010 at 9:56pm | IP Logged | 11
|
|
|
Drunk driving is illegal.Smoking in most places is illegal, and here in Australia at least, is being taxed out of existence completely. Yet in the US, carrying a gun is not only legal, it seems to be encouraged and is spreading to places like churches and bars. How on earth does that encourage the responsible usage of weaponry? If you said to me you owned a gun, kept it in a locked strongbox at home, and only used it in extreme circumstances (e.g. home invasion), then I might agree with you. But carrying around guns is not freedom, it's madness - it's like legalizing the ability to drink alcohol while driving, and then saying it's only illegal if you actually go over the blood-alcohol limit or hit someone. Sounds fine in theory, but would be a nightmare in practice. Anyway here in Australia the ban on guns has worked. I posted statistics in this thread showing the marked reduction in gun crime and overall decline in homicides since the 1996 national ban on guns. Perhaps if you focused on responsible freedom, rather than just freedom for the sake of freedom, you might have similar success.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
e-mail
|
| |
Brad Krawchuk
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 June 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 5814
|
| Posted: 15 July 2010 at 9:56pm | IP Logged | 12
|
|
|
Ted - alcohol consumption and driving aren't created to kill. When those substances and vehicles are used incorrectly and irresponsibly they may lead to death.
If I shoot you in the head, I'm using a gun properly. If a guy goes into a school and murders everyone with an AK-47, he's using the gun correctly. That gun? Built for killing people.
Baseball bat is made for baseball, but it can be used to murder someone. Same with a car, same with a bungee cord, same with a hammer. They all have some purpose they are specifically built for, and an example of using them not for their intended purpose would be to murder with them. Hell, you even use the word accident in your example...
Maybe alcohol and cars should both be illegal since so many people are killed accidentally each year.
Yes, when used incorrectly and accidents might occur (or even, as my examples dictate, deliberately) plenty of objects and tools can be dangerous and deadly.
Killing someone with a gun? That's some good use of a gun! If you hit a homer with a baseball bat, that's awesome! If you build a deck and use your hammer for the nails, that's awesome! If you walk into a crowded mall with a gun and pick people off, that's awesome! You're doing what you should be doing with that gun!
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
e-mail
|
| |
Topic Closed)
