| Author |
|
Ted Pugliese
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 December 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 7985
|
| Posted: 24 July 2010 at 1:11am | IP Logged | 1
|
|
|
In other words, your statement:
If you use a gun and it kills a person - even a person you don't intend to kill - you are using the gun properly.
Is just wrong. You were not using it properly.
Were you properly using a car when you killed someone driving? It was designed to be driven.
"What happened?"
I ran him over.
How?
Driving.
No worries, the car was made to be driven, you were using it properly. You are off the hook.
Edited by Ted Pugliese on 24 July 2010 at 1:27am
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
| www
|
| |
Knut Robert Knutsen
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 September 2006
Posts: 7374
|
| Posted: 24 July 2010 at 1:36am | IP Logged | 2
|
|
|
Ted. You've said you just jumped in? Go back and read the whole thread. The car analogy? First - not its primary purpose to kill. Done. Also : You need a license to drive a car. You need proper training and there are specific rules for using it. What we've been discussing in this thread is licensing through training in gun use and gun handling. The requirement of proper storage of guns in gun safes or metal gun cabinets. Also: whether guns are the best way or even a useful way of confronting a potential burglar. A lot of us see it as the least useful solution to a home break in, and the standard gun-defense scenario to be very unlikely, while discussing statistics that show that if you have a gun in your bedside table for protection against potential home invaders, that gun is far more likely to kill you, your family or your neighbours instead. You seem to ask us to spend an awful lot of time addressing issues that have already been discussed over and over because you can't be arsed to read the whole thread. It's only 14 pages.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
Brad Krawchuk
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 June 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 5814
|
| Posted: 24 July 2010 at 3:43am | IP Logged | 3
|
|
|
Seems to suggest that killing without a gun is ok. Is killing with a steak knife ok because it was designed to cut steak? Is killing with your bare hands ok because you are not using any kind of weapon at all?
---
Sure, if you've got problems reading and with language skills and you have half a brain, I suppose you could change the meaning and the intent of my words so you have something to argue against. Be my guest!
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
e-mail
|
| |
Mike O'Brien
Byrne Robotics Member
Official JB Historian
Joined: 18 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 10934
|
| Posted: 24 July 2010 at 3:54am | IP Logged | 4
|
|
|
Ted, in all fairness, we have to accept that the unstated assumption is that killing is wrong. Brad's answer was to your point (as Knut notes, already addressed, in this thread, and every other gun thread) of "why don't we ban cars?" - to wit: Cars are designed for driving. Guns are designed to kill people. No matter how you kill people, you've done a bad bad thing, but we're not talking relative morality of killing - we're talking about the difference between a gun and a car, which was your question. Clearly you're an educated man, Ted (and a fellow educator, so...), so if you take a step back from this and take a deep breath, you might see the frustration some of us are having with your reply. It's not very well thought out, or logical. Brad answered your very scenario, and you just turned his answer into a "how long have you been beating your wife" type attack. Yes, I am busting your chops a little, but to turn around and suggest that Brad has no qualms with taking life, when that wasn't even the question he was addressing, well... come on. You can do better. Now, having said that, I think I would be interested in hearing what converted you on the Death Penalty. I've found that I rooted my positions pretty early in life and rarely budge, but honestly, gun rights are one that I did do a complete 180 degree turn on, just based on the debates here on the JBF.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
Ted Pugliese
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 December 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 7985
|
| Posted: 24 July 2010 at 6:21am | IP Logged | 5
|
|
|
And that might be it, Mike. I don't necessarily think killing is wrong, and that may be why I do not have a problem with guns or Americans exercising their constitutional rights to own them.
It is important to note though, that I am not a proponent of accidental death, murder, and murdering innocent people. In fact, the existence of murderers is one of the reasons I don't necessarily think killing is wrong, because I think murderers should be killed.
Surely you see that I know the difference between guns and cars, and while I get Brad's point, I hope he gets mine. It is the outcome of our scenarios and the accidental death of anyone that for me is the issue. So whether or not an innocent victim loses his or her life to a gun accident or a car accident, the outcome is the same, and if we should value life equally, as some here have suggested, then what is the difference really?
Seems that some here are more against guns than the accidental deaths they are worried about, and it seems that they are more worried about guns simply because they were designed to kill.
I may not have any guns in my home. I do understand the risks, and I am not willing to take them with my children in the house, but I figured my supporting the right to own a gun in your house was not the issue.
Let me also say that I have no problems with gun laws, e.g. I do not think criminals should be allowed to buy guns.
I don't even know how I got caught up in this. We are arguing a moot point. If I want a gun, I can go out and get one. It would probably take me a couple weeks, but I could do it.
Guns don't kill, people kill may be a week statement. We know people die from guns who wouldn't die without guns, and that might be your point, and its a good one. I get it, but guns aren't bad, people are bad is probably closer to my thoughts on the matter.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
| www
|
| |
Al Cook
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 December 2004
Posts: 12736
|
| Posted: 24 July 2010 at 8:44am | IP Logged | 6
|
|
|
I know a woman whose husband was beating her.
When he did, she ignored it. When confronted on it, she would excuse it.
"I was totally in the wrong."
"It didn't really hurt."
"It looks way worse than it is."
"He just got mad; everyone does."
No, my friend, they don't. Not like that.
Sometimes, you can be so close to something that you can't see it. Or you can be so in love with something that you don't want to see it.
An outside friend or family member has every right to step in and say "wake up. This is hurting you. It's hurting those around you. It's time to make it stop."
So a Canadian, an Australian, a Russian, a Hungarian; anyone - all have the right to look at the insanity in your country, the staggering amount of needless deaths and say "wake up. This is hurting you. It's hurting those around you. It's time to make it stop."
And yes, I am a gun owner who is a proponent of gun control laws and outright bans on certain weapons. Why is this always so hard for people to wrap their heads around?
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
Brad Krawchuk
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 June 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 5814
|
| Posted: 24 July 2010 at 11:37am | IP Logged | 7
|
|
|
I get it, but guns aren't bad, people are bad is probably closer to my thoughts on the matter.
---
You think murder is bad, but that an object created to murder is a good thing?
That's like saying I think rape is bad, but that we should had out Rohypnol to every guy walking into a night club. If everyone has Rohypnol, and no one knows who has it and who doesn't, we'll all be extra careful and the stats for rape will actually go down because if we see a guy put some roofies in some chicks drink, we can put them in HIS drink too, and thus save her.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
e-mail
|
| |
Jodi Moisan
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 February 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 6808
|
| Posted: 24 July 2010 at 12:25pm | IP Logged | 8
|
|
|
Al that last post is one of the best reasoning's on the topic of gun control, well said!
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
| www
|
| |
Al Cook
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 December 2004
Posts: 12736
|
| Posted: 24 July 2010 at 12:30pm | IP Logged | 9
|
|
|
The guns aren't bad, people are bad argument is a worse piece of sophistry than the idiotic guns don't kill people, people kill people trope.
It ignores the simple fact that some guns are designed specifically to end a human life. And it ignores the simple fact that people use guns to kill people, and that needs to be stopped. Gun lovers think that the last place to look to do that is the guns. And that's idiotic, myopic, and deluding.
One of your kids picks up a stick and whacks your other kid with it. The first thing any sane parent does is take the stick away. Then there are sanctions and other measures. Even if the other measures, punishments and corrections begin to take place before the stick is removed, the stick is still taken away.
Now I know that the gun lovers in the crowd are already having conniptions reading that. "He wants to take away our guns!"
If you're more upset at the idea that your guns could be taken away than at the deaths and the massive social problems your current weapons-laden society and lack of decent control measures cause, then you are already too fucked in the head to reason with about this kind of thing anyway.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
Andy Williams
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 99
|
| Posted: 24 July 2010 at 3:02pm | IP Logged | 10
|
|
|
Ted,
Well said. All of it. You get a standing ovation!
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
Al Cook
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 December 2004
Posts: 12736
|
| Posted: 24 July 2010 at 6:41pm | IP Logged | 11
|
|
|
The guy trots out the idiotic car analogy again and you congratulate him on everything he said? I'm beginning to think you're a moron, Andy.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
Mike O'Brien
Byrne Robotics Member
Official JB Historian
Joined: 18 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 10934
|
| Posted: 24 July 2010 at 6:55pm | IP Logged | 12
|
|
|
Shh... Al. Who cares about guns or morons trolling on the internet?JOHN BYRNE'S NEXT MEN IS BACK!
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
|
|
Topic Closed)
