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Al Cook
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 December 2004
Posts: 12735
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| Posted: 21 July 2010 at 8:22am | IP Logged | 1
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"Also, if the passage in our cherished document is considered outdated, then why don't we just re-write the whole damn thing altogether and start from scratch and throw away the very foundation upon which our great nation was built upon!"
Why is this always the response to the suggestion that the 2nd Amendment be revised?
Do gun lovers have no idea of the meaning of the word "amendment"?
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Jeremiah Avery
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 December 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 2431
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| Posted: 21 July 2010 at 8:43am | IP Logged | 2
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It is rather peculiar that some who tout the importance of the second amendment are also trying to minimize the contributions of its author due to his recorded stance on the separation of church and state.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 134202
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| Posted: 21 July 2010 at 8:49am | IP Logged | 3
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Also, if the passage in our cherished document is considered outdated, then why don't we just re-write the whole damn thing altogether and start from scratch and throw away the very foundation upon which our great nation was built upon!•• Sir Isaac Newton was one of the most brilliant scientists and mathematicians of his Age. His work on gravity alone assured his name would be forever enshrined among the immortals. He also wrote millions of words (literally) on Biblical analysis, and was deeply into alchemy. These things do not render his scientific work useless.
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Andy Williams
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 99
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| Posted: 21 July 2010 at 9:05am | IP Logged | 4
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So, you would, in fact, use a handgun to protect yourself from someone breaking in to your house or committing a crime.
Earlier, you said that you thought that people who committed crimes were worth less than other people.
So far we've confirmed that you're willing to make value judgements about people's worth based on what you perceive that they desire.
Now you're admitting to wanting to have a weapon designed solely to kill a person to use against folks that you would pass this judgement on.
My paraphrasing your words to "I think that they've decided their lives are worthless, so I can shoot them!" is a succinct and accurate representation of your views as you have espoused them yourself so far in this thread. ****** You asked me two separate questions...here, again, are my answers.
Yes. I would use a gun to protect my family/myself from someone breaking into my house.
This may sound hard to believe but I am of the opinion that anyone who has to break in to my home does so with less than honorable intentions and with the foreknowledge (or the desire) that their actions may cause harm to my family. As long as I am breathing I will not allow that to happen...by whatever means necessary. Outside of my home/my family...that's for the police to handle and I think they do a great job with limited support and limited appreciation.
Yes. I value predators (rapists, murderers, child abusers, drug dealers, etc...) less than I do family, friends, teachers, police, doctors, waiters/waitresses, co-workers, pizza delivery guys, etc... I also believe that those individuals have, by their own choice, placed a thing or the perceived value of a thing above their own lives and, therefore, the lives of anyone who'd get between them and the thing and that they will do anything, from assault to murder, to get that thing. I believe I stated, at some point, that I'd prefer that predators be removed from society via incarceration or, based upon their own choices, elimination.
I don't know what circles you run in but I usually find out about the predators by watching/reading the news. I don't walk the streets with my .45 holstered passing judgement and enacting punishment on passerby's. As stated, I think the police do a great job of handling those responsible and don't need my help. My opinion on anyone's value as citizens of this country or inhabitants of this planet does not translate into a desire to shoot them in the streets because I think they look like a drug dealer.
Your "I think that they've decided their lives are worthless, so I can shoot them!" is adding 2+2 to get 5.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 134202
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| Posted: 21 July 2010 at 9:09am | IP Logged | 5
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I would use a gun to protect my family/myself from someone breaking into my house. •• At what point? If he's standing on the porch, jimmying the lock, would you fire thru the door? For that matter, would you content yourself with what you perceive as intent? Someone approaches your house late at night with a crowbar in his hand. Do you open fire immediately?
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Al Cook
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 December 2004
Posts: 12735
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| Posted: 21 July 2010 at 9:10am | IP Logged | 6
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What kind of person would break into your house, Andy?
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Michael Huber
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 August 2007
Location: United States
Posts: 3338
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| Posted: 21 July 2010 at 9:39am | IP Logged | 7
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As to "self defense" -- are you deliberately ignoring the fact that this is something which must be judged to be so in a court of law? That any violent act is illegal until it is judged, Not true, officers discretion at the scene, and even then the DA may or may not instruct the police to go back out and make the arrest. AT the leadt, the person commiting the alleged "self defense" HAS to answer all manner of questioning by the police, and the DA/assist. DA to determine if there is enough evidence to warrant a court hearing. Many instances never make it in front of a judge.
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Kurtis J. Evans
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 18 June 2010
Location: Canada
Posts: 133
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| Posted: 21 July 2010 at 10:01am | IP Logged | 8
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I agree with Knut's assertions about gun safety.
Please understand that I support the banning of guns. If we had the power tomorrow to toss every handgun into a big vat of hot lava, I would be thrilled. I remain incredibly skeptical about the possibility of ever successfully outlawing them, though.
Therefore, I also have to support the contingency response of a) putting restrictions on ownership -- i.e., background checks, banning armor-piercing bullets, mandatory waiting periods, etc., and b) lots and lots of safety training.
The snarks of the world will debate my use of this term, but "responsible" parents should absolutely instruct their children on how to behave around a gun. (Actually, the more I think of it, "responsible" is not at all an oxymoron, because even if -- heck, especially if -- you don't own a gun, you should still instruct your children on what they should do if they ever find one, or are around another kid with one.)
Therefore, outlaw them. But if not outlawed, instruct safety precautions with a religious fervor. Because if guns aren't outlawed and your kids aren't quite aware of just how dangerous they are, then the consequences can often be unimaginable. (And if you can find it, you should listen to the disturbing 911 call from the incident I've linked ... and then, play it for your children.) |
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Jodi Moisan
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 February 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 6808
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| Posted: 21 July 2010 at 10:13am | IP Logged | 9
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Going back to those involved in the story of this thread.
Where were the Mayor's daughters rights? Seems to me, her right to not be shot and killed, got completely trashed by her mother's right to own a gun.
But hey, I get pissed that by law, I have to buckle up in my car and some guy on a motorcycle goes zooming by without a helmet.
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Michael Huber
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 August 2007
Location: United States
Posts: 3338
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| Posted: 21 July 2010 at 10:22am | IP Logged | 10
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But hey, I get pissed that by law, I have to buckle up in my car and some guy on a motorcycle goes zooming by without a helmet. I agree Jodi, and his defense is it's his head, but there are insurance rates incurred, emergency responses to pay for, etc.... all because he wants to feel the wind in his hair. He should buy a damn Miata and wear his seat belt.
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Kurtis J. Evans
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 18 June 2010
Location: Canada
Posts: 133
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| Posted: 21 July 2010 at 10:37am | IP Logged | 11
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Or, perhaps, he shouldn't be forced to wear a helmet, and you shouldn't be forced to buckle up?
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Andy Williams
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 99
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| Posted: 21 July 2010 at 11:00am | IP Logged | 12
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At what point? If he's standing on the porch, jimmying the lock, would you fire thru the door? For that matter, would you content yourself with what you perceive as intent? Someone approaches your house late at night with a crowbar in his hand. Do you open fire immediately? **** How specific do you want me to be? No I would not fire through the door...if I happened to hear someone trying to jimmy the lock I'd call the cops, let the individual know I'd call the cops and that I had a gun in the house, in my hand and then wait to see what happened. If they were stupid enough to force their way into my house they'd find themselves looking down the barrel of the gun and if they decided that was enough of a deterrent we'd stand like that until the authorities showed up to cart the dumbass downtown. If they decided that they'd prefer to continue with their course of action then I'd have to assume that they mean to harm my family or myself and once they entered my home in an uninvited and aggressive manner they'd find themselves in harm's way. I think I stated that anything that happens outside of my house is best left to the cops so I think that question's already been answered.
Al, I have no idea what type of person would try to break in to my house and hope I never have to find out. I know you're angling for some kind of twist on my answer, what would it be this time?
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Topic Closed)
