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Donald Miller
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 03 February 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 3601
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| Posted: 15 July 2010 at 1:44pm | IP Logged | 1
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Thus, any confused individual who finds himself attracted to young girls is likely to find himself attracted to increasingly younger girls, as part of his pattern of self-loathing. So much emotional torment -- in victims and victimizers -- would surely be set aside if our society was sexually liberated enough to even be able to say "Sure, it's okay to be attracted to eleven year olds. Just don't DO anything about it!"
Interesting direction this conversations takes...
I find myself agreeing...it is our societies repressive nature that paints these potential predators into a corner creating a situation that becomes worse as time passes, unable to seek help for their problem, bad things are almost destined to happen.
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Jodi Moisan
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Joined: 19 February 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 6808
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| Posted: 15 July 2010 at 3:01pm | IP Logged | 2
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I do not think pedophiles are "born that way", I look at them as I look at thieves or someone that commits murder, were those people that break the law, born that way? Or were they encouraged by outside forces. Most people that molest, were once molested.
Edited by Jodi Moisan on 15 July 2010 at 3:02pm
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Keith Thomas
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 06 April 2009
Location: United States
Posts: 3082
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| Posted: 15 July 2010 at 3:11pm | IP Logged | 3
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Most people that molest, were once molested I would say almost all of them, paying for a lifetime of treatment for their victims should be part of the punishment for any convicted child molester.
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Michael Penn
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Joined: 12 April 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 12855
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| Posted: 15 July 2010 at 4:30pm | IP Logged | 4
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Back to JB's original original notion about gay couples adopting gay minors, an article I read today has some cogent thoughts...
>> Any agency, public or private, that makes adoptive placements must assign the child to a potential adoptive parent. The alignment of parent and child according to the needs and capabilities of each is called “matching.” When making adoptive placements, agencies often try to match certain traits common to the parent and child. Especially in the early days of adoption, when it was a goal to make the adoptive family look to the world as much like a biological family as was possible, physical similarities between child and parent were thought highly desirable. Because of the heritability of physical characteristics, in particular, this reasoning also supported in-racial matching -- and even today transracial adoption is controversial in some quarters. Unlike race, sexual orientation is not an immediately visible difference.
Matching children and parents based on similar traits might also be justified on the basis of increasing the children's understanding of how they will develop biologically, that is, anatomical changes in physical features (a blonde child might be placed with a blonde mother, etc). Gay and lesbian people do not age in a genetically distinct way that would profit gay and lesbian adolescents to observe. Rather, the benefits accrued from observing older gay and lesbian people are in the nature of the benefits reaped from watching role models. Some might argue that teaching coping skills supports adoptive matching in terms of homosexual orientation. If one presumes that in general modern American society is heterosexist and homophobic, in order to flourish, a member of a sexual minority must learn how to cope successfully in such an environment -- and who better to teach that than a gay parent. Still, others might argue that there is no consensus on what constitutes coping. This is true not only for sexual minorities but for other minorities as well. In the context of homosexuality, some could argue that “coping” means overcoming homosexuality and leading a heterosexual life. Others differ markedly with this view, and instead argue that “coping” means leading a positive, productive, fulfilling life in which lesbian or gay male intimacy plays a part. Within this latter group too, there might be many divergent views.
Another view of coping goes further: thriving as a gay person does not mean merely involving oneself in a same-sex, but heterosexual-style, relationship. Rather, it means embracing a rich gay culture that may include outrageous behavior that challenges “traditional” notions of gender-specific behavior. According to this view, “camping,” cross-dressing, and lively public displays are acceptable, even desirable, behavior. What, then, is coping—changing, hiding, conforming, or shocking? Who decides? Does the minority community define how to flourish, or does the greater society? If it is the community, then how does one define it? Within the gay or lesbian communities, there is no consensus on how to thrive, and therefore on how to cope. If an adoption agency wanted to place gay or lesbian youth with gay or lesbian adoptive parents so that they could learn how to cope with homophobia, the agency would be imposing on the children its own view of what constitutes coping.
Gay and lesbian adolescents might be matched with gay and lesbian parents to provide the youth with positive role models to whom they may aspire to be. The children would see that they can flourish in society, that they could serve as parents, and that society could one day choose them to parent. However, children also have role models other than their parents. Nongay parents could expose them to productive, successful gay people, and thereby show the children that they can succeed in society. Furthermore, if gay people were limited to parenting gay adolescents, they would be less effective role models. They would only be able to show their children that they have been found capable of parenting gay children, and not other children. Faced with this image, all adopted children would be taught by society that gay people can only parent gay and lesbian adolescents.
Finally, by matching children and parents within a community, the adoption system reinforces to society at large, as well as to the particular community, the value and worth of that community and of its members. Thus, matching gay children with gay parents may send a message that each “deserves” the other. <<
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Knut Robert Knutsen
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Joined: 22 September 2006
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| Posted: 15 July 2010 at 4:38pm | IP Logged | 5
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If such matching were even possible, I suppose the only thing we could be certain of is that "match exclusions" may be an issue. Meaning that if you know a child is most likely going to turn out to be gay, based on some genetic test, then there would be more specific scrutiny of prospective adoptive parents to make sure they're at least not homophobic. Just like the issue of racist views would be an issue in dealing with adopting a child of another "race".
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Michael Roberts
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Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 14875
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| Posted: 15 July 2010 at 5:10pm | IP Logged | 6
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I do not think pedophiles are "born that way", I look at them as I look at thieves or someone that commits murder, were those people that break the law, born that way? Or were they encouraged by outside forces. Most people that molest, were once molested. ---- The word pedophile is used so imprecisely that discussion goes off-track. A pedophile is someone with a paraphilia for prepubescent children. That's it. People equate pedophile with child molester or statutory rapist, and all that does is confuse the language. On a tangent, with regard to crimes due to sociopathy, I do think that sociopaths are indeed born that way.
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Mike Benson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 January 2010
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| Posted: 15 July 2010 at 6:06pm | IP Logged | 7
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Does pedophilia really have to be part of this discussion? I understand that there are some radical dumb asses in the world that believe that being gay and being a pedophile are analogous. But do we have to give even a hint of credence to this foolishness by allowing that comparison here, even if it isn't being done maliciously?
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Tom French
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Joined: 07 January 2005
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| Posted: 15 July 2010 at 6:12pm | IP Logged | 8
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Can't believe I always miss these threads until page 5. "Born that way." Trust me. I remember seeing Joe Namath win the Superbowl when I was four and feeling something... something about him... But I felt it again watching William Shatner (that 'green' tunic -- woof!), Gil Gerard in that unforgiving silver spandex thing, Lou Ferrigno, the first bodybuilder I got to see with regularity on TV, Tom Wopat, Parker Stevenson, Harrison Ford!!!!!! Ah, to be a closeted teenager on a farm in Upstate New York during the 70's again, when coming out of the closet was an After-School Special, complete with drama and heartache (and usually someone dying of complications from AIDS). I've been married for two years now and I've been a Primary School teacher for ten years (ages 4-7), so you couldn't pay me to have children of my own! When I go home at night, I DO NOT want to hear the pitter patter of little feet -- except those paws of my dogs! (We've adopted two dogs from the shelter, does that count?) But that doesn't mean I think we'd be bad dads. I think we'd be GREAT dads! I just don't want kids. I feel no genetic compulsion to pass on my genes -- though I AM a top...
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Mike Benson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 January 2010
Location: United States
Posts: 838
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| Posted: 15 July 2010 at 6:34pm | IP Logged | 9
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embracing a rich gay culture that may include outrageous behavior that challenges “traditional” notions of gender-specific behavior. *** That's a rich gay culture? Those people represent a minority within the gay community. They're just the ones you see on the news. There are just as many of us out here, living our lives in the suburbs quietly that have never put on a dress or marched in a parade. ***** Within the gay or lesbian communities, there is no consensus on how to thrive *** Is there consensus on this within any community?
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Ted Pugliese
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Joined: 05 December 2005
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| Posted: 15 July 2010 at 6:41pm | IP Logged | 10
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That made it the same as being Black, or White, or Asian, or anythingelse that was an accident of birth, not a deliberate choice. ++ Thanksfor using that as the example. I fear that many people will think,"It's genetic, therefore it's a disease, and we need to find a cure." •• Took me a longish time to write that sentence! I was thinking Got to make this idiot-proof. . . !
This is interesting. Firstly, Black, White, and Asian refers to race, and there is clearly a difference between race and sexual orientation, so the comparison may be idiot-proof, but still slightly flawed because...
Later, JB suggests that pedophilia is probably genetic too. If it is, and it may truly be, then which is a better comparison? Homosexulaity/sexual preference to race or to another sexual behavior?
I would guess, without bigotry, that homosexuality is closer to pedophilia than it is to race, so these comparisons can sometimes be dangerous.
The real issue, for me, is not in whether or not homosexulaity, pedophilia, and heterosexuallity are genetic, but whether or not ones behavior is bad or wrong, as defined by how it affects another.
It is my opinion that whomever one choses to love or sleep with is up to him or her and that such a decision is personal and none of your business anyway.
Pedophilia, on the other hand, is wrong and bad because there is a victim. One's behavior hurts someone else; it violates them.
Personally, I think some good but misguided people spend too much time worrying about who is sleeping with whom while pedophiles, rapists, and murders commit their ugly acts of violence.
Good people should stand up together in ultimate frustration and put an end to this. Such acts are evil and should not be tolerated by civilized people. Violent animals such as child molesters, rapists, and murderers should be put down like the inhuman dogs they are.
How long will good people stand idly by while animals run the streets?
But we are worried about sexuality? Come on!
If it's bad in God's eyes, then let God deal with it. Judge not lest ye be judged and all that.
Furthermore, Jesus wants us to treat everybody the way we want to be treated. So how do you justify hating and persecuting homosexuals? You can't. We should be good to each other, especially when our actions have no bearing on the health and welfare of others.
I have homosexual friends. They are great people. There is no reason naturally to treat them any differently than anyone else. Nor can one justify such disrespect in Christianity and humanity.
However, we should take the molesters, the rapists, and the murderers outback and exterminate the real evil that spoils our world.
How's that for thread drift?
(God, I hope this makes sense)
Edited by Ted Pugliese on 15 July 2010 at 6:49pm
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Ted Pugliese
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| Posted: 15 July 2010 at 6:56pm | IP Logged | 11
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And I do not care if pedophilia, rape, and murder are genetic.
(My opinion, and I have the right to it. If you can be gay, then I can have an opinion ;-)
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William McCormick
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Joined: 26 February 2006
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| Posted: 15 July 2010 at 8:34pm | IP Logged | 12
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Furthermore, Jesus wants us to treat everybody the way we want to be treated. So how do you justify hating and persecuting homosexuals? You can't. We should be good to each other, especially when our actions have no bearing on the health and welfare of others*************** Actually, according to the Bible, Jesus wants us to kill the homosexuals. I think that's how they justify hating and persecuting them.
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Topic Closed)
