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Paulo Pereira
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Posted: 19 July 2010 at 9:43am | IP Logged | 1  

 JB wrote:
And, as noted, Jesus endorsed this position when he said For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. (Matthew 5:18)

But, as noted in various threads, Jesus seems somewhat wishy washy on this stance.
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Brad Krawchuk
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Posted: 19 July 2010 at 9:50am | IP Logged | 2  

If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Sounds to me the Bible's anti-BI-sexual. If a man lies with a man AS HE LIES WITH A WOMAN, well... how many gay guys lay with women? I think they're safe! 


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Knut Robert Knutsen
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Posted: 19 July 2010 at 10:09am | IP Logged | 3  

"Sounds to me the Bible's anti-BI-sexual. "

That's a wild, baseless interpretation of it. Why on earth would bi-sexuality be "worse" than homosexuality? The Bible cracks down on non-reproductive sex, and on women having sex with men who are not their husbands. It is quite okay with a married man having sex with women who are not his wife (or wives) as long as they're single (presumptively unmarried servants, concubines or prostitutes). So it's okay to have sex with two women or two men, but not one woman and one man? Absurd.

The odd phrasing is due to the language being euphemistic.  It's like saying "know how you - lie down with - a woman (meaning having sex with her)? Don't do that with a guy.

It doesn't mean "don't have sex with a guy in the same way that you have sex with a woman". How is that even an issue? I mean, it's not like men have vaginas.

It's just a desperate reach to suggest that the Bible is somehow okay with homosexuality, and that Anti-gay christians are reading the Bible wrong.

The Bible really isn't that complicated. We're not talking about complex literary constructions with layers of encoded meaning. We're talking about fairly basic language with a bit of euphemism for sex talk.

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John Byrne
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Posted: 19 July 2010 at 10:18am | IP Logged | 4  

If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

++

Sounds to me the Bible's anti-BI-sexual. If a man lies with a man AS HE LIES WITH A WOMAN, well... how many gay guys lay with women? I think they're safe!

••

Nice try! Some even argue that the Bible is only anti-PRACTICING homosexuals -- that as long as you don't actually DO it, you're safe.

But Biblical language isn't that easy. For instance, the phrase is "If a man also lie with MANKIND…" (emphasis added). Are you safe, then, if you are a practicing homosexual but have not had sex with every man on Earth?

In the case of this nasty little rule, the word "as" means "in the same way", ie sexually, not "as well as". It was not uncommon for men to sleep together in those days, so it was very important to specify just what was meant by "lie".

So you fags are all damned abominations and should be killed! The Bible says so. You know. The book that's all about Love.

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William McCormick
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Posted: 19 July 2010 at 10:54am | IP Logged | 5  

I think Brad's post was meant as a joke.
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Victor Manuel Fernandez Patiño
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Posted: 19 July 2010 at 10:58am | IP Logged | 6  

Then kill us softly, with love please...
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Michael Penn
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Posted: 19 July 2010 at 11:08am | IP Logged | 7  

Condemnation of homosexual acts is clear in the bible. Cannot be disputed. It so happens that no record exists of capital punishment for homosexual acts under Jewish auspices. And in terms of capital punishment in general, the ancient rabbis heartily disliked even the notion, and so they devised procedures so complex as to make applying the death penalty extremely unlikely if not in most cases impossible. 

The old saying is very true -- the Jews are the people of the book... but that book ain't the bible!


In any event, although in Jesus' time Jews didn't have the power to execute anybody, this wouldn't have changed Jesus' belief that the bible's blanket condemnation of death for homosexual acts, even if unable to be prosecuted, was wholly correct. Also, if Jesus was not of the party who accepted the oral laws, and it certainly seems he was not, then he wouldn't have had grounds as the ancient rabbis did for a general antipathy toward capital punishment. 
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Brad Krawchuk
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Posted: 19 July 2010 at 11:13am | IP Logged | 8  

I think Brad's post was meant as a joke.

---

And that's why we NEED the " ;) " on internet forums! Thank you, William!
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Bill Cox
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Posted: 19 July 2010 at 11:18am | IP Logged | 9  

There's no such thing as a "potentially" homosexual child. That's like saying a "potentially" Chinese child. Homosexuality is in the genes. It is not something that is "triggered", tho in our still stupid and still repressive society, it is often something that has to be RECOGNIZED. A Gay child having Gay adoptive parents would get over that particular hurdle a lot more easily than do many Gay children in otherwise Straight households.

*****

Where's the proof that its genetic? What gene can be identified as the sexual orientation gene? Nada... Lets think logically. Saying that it needs to be RECOGNIZED is subjective to whoever is doing the recongnition.

As for adoption, one would need iron clad / beyond a shadow of a doubt proof of orientation before you could even entertain this notion.



Edited by Bill Cox on 19 July 2010 at 11:22am
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Paulo Pereira
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Posted: 19 July 2010 at 11:19am | IP Logged | 10  

 Michael P wrote:
In any event, although in Jesus' time Jews didn't have the power to execute anybody, this wouldn't have changed Jesus' belief that the bible's blanket condemnation of death for homosexual acts...

A belief that is implicit, at best.
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Victor Manuel Fernandez Patiño
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Posted: 19 July 2010 at 11:20am | IP Logged | 11  

One thing is for sure: We will never know the truth about Jesus, the NT has been manipulated so many times that we really don't know if something is true in there, Romans, before of becoming Christians, were a little more open to certain sexual behaviors, and maybe they left some parts out of the the final version intentionally -but I'm sure he would have been on the side of the OT-. 
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Paulo Pereira
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Posted: 19 July 2010 at 11:21am | IP Logged | 12  

 Victor wrote:
We will never know the truth about Jesus, the NT has been manipulated so many times that we really don't know if something is true in there...

I'm fairly sure that there at least a few things in there that have been outright disproven.
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