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Thanos Kollias
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 June 2004
Location: Greece
Posts: 5009
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| Posted: 16 July 2010 at 9:11am | IP Logged | 1
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William, you inaccurately used the word "actually". That's all I was saying in relation to your post.
As for the NT citations of St Paul's epistoles, which are often mentioned in such discussions, I must admit I was more than a bit surprised to discover at least two sites run by homosexuals where they made the case that St. Paul DIDN'T attack homosexuals.
I know you don't speak Greek, but Michael Penn does, so these are for him and whoecer else happens to read Greek.
http://www.sapphogr.net/logos/h/8riskia.htm
http://www.10percent.gr/old/issues/200706/a09.html
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Stephen Robinson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5833
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| Posted: 16 July 2010 at 9:16am | IP Logged | 2
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My understanding of the subject is that people are morelikely to molest children if they themselves had been molested as achild -- implying a learned behavior -- but if you watch the news,
**************
SER: My interpretation of that data was that you are most likely to act upon what is viewed as socially unacceptable behavior if you grew up in such an environment. So, although not all children of criminals become criminals, many do -- especially if they were already inclined toward anti-social behavior.
This can be applied to homosexuality in the sense that the clearly closeted men I've met came from strictly religious/conservative homes where there was every reason for them *not* to follow their instincts. Whereas, those who had the most ease with their sexuality where those whose parents were gay or at least openly tolerant.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 134168
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| Posted: 16 July 2010 at 9:25am | IP Logged | 3
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Gotta read that (and everything else!) with Mark 9:7.•• Ah, but Matthew 27:45-46!
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Victor Manuel Fernandez Patiño
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: Mexico
Posts: 1605
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| Posted: 16 July 2010 at 9:30am | IP Logged | 4
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Damn! Now I have all the schedule wrong!
Was John the 14:28 o the 15:14?
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Andrew Hess
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 9846
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| Posted: 16 July 2010 at 9:49am | IP Logged | 5
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William -
(sorry, responding late here)
I wasn't meaning to raise your hackles, but was seeking clarification.
Like I said, I'm not up with my reading of the New Testament, so don't remember if Jesus spoke out specifically against homosexuality. (Knowing full well, however, that he was very much for sticking with the Torah, and I think I pointed this out.)
Scanning thru these responses, it doesn't seem that Jesus came out as specifically against homosexuality.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 134168
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| Posted: 16 July 2010 at 9:52am | IP Logged | 6
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Scanning thru these responses, it doesn't seem that Jesus came out as specifically against homosexuality.•• Does he need to? The OT condemns homosexuality as an abomination, and Jesus said not word of the OT was to be changed.
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Andrew Hess
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
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| Posted: 16 July 2010 at 10:01am | IP Logged | 7
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My bringing up that homosexuality is only one of the things that is seen as an "abomination" in Torah, but seems to be the one thing that people harp on, was meant to point out that people cherry pick the things they wish to ban.
Adultery is equally frowned upon, with a really big frown, in wording equal to phrasing against homosexuality. To underscore it, it's even one of the Ten Commandments, so it must have been a really big problem that needed to be addressed by the Word of God. However, society is much more lenient to adulterers than to homosexuals.
My seemingly eternal question in that regard, and hopefully to tie this back to the topic of this conversation, is: why do people hate homosexuality so much? (And if you can't bring up "because it says so in the Bible," because you then have to prove that you hold all of the other teachings of the Bible, specifically Old Testament, with equal vehemence (adultery, unruly children, people who work on the Sabbath, etc).)
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Andrew Hess
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 9846
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| Posted: 16 July 2010 at 10:08am | IP Logged | 8
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I stated: "Scanning thru these responses, it doesn't seem that Jesus came out as specifically against homosexuality."•• JB responded: "Does he need to? The OT condemns homosexuality as an abomination, and Jesus said not word of the OT was to be changed." ---------- No, I was just looking for clarification. William said words to the effect of "Jesus says..." so I was trying to find out if he was quoting the specific words of Jesus. Seems not. This is just another way of coming back to my question: why do people hate homosexuality so much? Since people choose to ban homosexuality because it says so in the Bible, they must ban adultery (et al) equally. The fact that people don't says a lot more about these people than I think they wish. Case in point: how many very vocal opponents to homosexuality have been forced out of the closet in recent years?
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William McCormick
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Joined: 26 February 2006
Posts: 3297
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| Posted: 16 July 2010 at 10:10am | IP Logged | 9
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I wasn't meaning to raise your hackles, but was seeking clarification.
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You didn't raise my hackles.
I just figure if the Bible says gays are an abomination and should be put to death, and supposedly the Bible is the word of God, and Jesus wants us to follow the word of God, then Jesus must want us to kill homosexuals also.
Now since I don't believe in any of it, it really doesn't matter. I was specifically referring to Ted, who said Jesus preaches love and tolerance, by pointing out that it's his Bible that teaches people to treat gay people like shit.
Now to be fair, he said that he doesn't follow the Old Testament, and I know he has no problems with gay people, but it is the Bible that most people use when they talk about why they are against gay marriage.
I know that are a great number of Christians out there that support gay rights, my parents and all my sisters among them, but you simply cannot ignore the fact that the biggest reason that most of these people are against homosexuality is because some religious book tells them it's wrong.
As pointed out above, if it said anywhere in the Bible that homosexuality was ok, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.
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Marc Foxx
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Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5598
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| Posted: 16 July 2010 at 10:25am | IP Logged | 10
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wrote:
| Luke 14:28
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Gotta read that (and everything else!) with Mark 9:7.
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I prefer Mark IV myself.
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Al Cook
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Joined: 21 December 2004
Posts: 12735
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| Posted: 16 July 2010 at 10:31am | IP Logged | 11
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Great photon-torpedo casings, and they also double as a handy makeshift coffin.
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Paulo Pereira
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Joined: 24 April 2006
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| Posted: 16 July 2010 at 10:33am | IP Logged | 12
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Homosexuality seems to at least have been tolerated in the case of David (in 1 Samuel), who, with his lover Jonathan, was apparently exempt from the usual punishment.
Also, what about Mark 14:51-52 and various passages in John (13:23-25, 19:26, 21:20) which refer to "disciple Jesus loved"? There is also some speculation that the centurion and his slave in Matthew 8:5-13 were a couple.
Edited by Paulo Pereira on 16 July 2010 at 10:34am
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Topic Closed)
